Infantry Training School at Saugor

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by Tchalmers, Feb 7, 2021.

  1. Tchalmers

    Tchalmers New Member

    Hi,

    My Grandfather spent 2 years of the war (43-45) teaching as an instructor in the Infantry Training School in Saugor (India)

    I have plenty of information on what happened prior as he served in the 1st Seaforth Highlanders which are relatively well documented but this Saugor period remains a real mystery.

    I've done the usual desktop online research to no avail, does anyone know where I can find out more details?

    Many Thanks in Advance!
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Perhaps you need to search in a different area, found this
    Courses of instruction, India, 1939 [to 1942]. Delhi/Simla: GSI, 1939--42. 11 pamphlets in 20 issues: No 1 - Fighting Vehicles School, Ahmednagar 1939, 1940 & 1942; No 2 - The Army School of Education, Belgaum 1939. The Army School of Education, Pachmarai, 1939; No. 3 - School of Artillery (India) 1939; No 4 - The Small Arms School (India) 1939 & 1940; The Infantry Schools, Saugor 1941; No 5 - Army School of Physical Assault, Ambala/Kasauli 1939; No 6 - Chemical Warfare School, Pachmari 1939 & 1941; No 7 - Schools controlled by the G.H.Q. in India 1939; No 8 - Kitchener College, Nowgong 1939 & 1942; No 9 - The Army Signal School, India 1939 & 1941; No 10 - (i) Field engineering courses, all arms, (ii) Pioneer courses, (iii) Army Headquarters draughtsmanship courses, (iv) Indian military service courses 1939 & 1942. No 11 - Frontier Warfare School, India, Kakul 1939. | The National Archives
    Reference: IOR/L/MIL/17/5/2201
    Title: Courses of instruction, India, 1939 [to 1942]. Delhi/Simla: GSI, 1939--42. 11 pamphlets in 20 issues: No 1 - Fighting Vehicles School, Ahmednagar 1939, 1940 & 1942; No 2 - The Army School of Education, Belgaum 1939. The Army School of Education, Pachmarai, 1939; No. 3 - School of Artillery (India) 1939; No 4 - The Small Arms School (India) 1939 & 1940; The Infantry Schools, Saugor 1941; No 5 - Army School of Physical Assault, Ambala/Kasauli 1939; No 6 - Chemical Warfare School, Pachmari 1939 & 1941; No 7 - Schools controlled by the G.H.Q. in India 1939; No 8 - Kitchener College, Nowgong 1939 & 1942; No 9 - The Army Signal School, India 1939 & 1941; No 10 - (i) Field engineering courses, all arms, (ii) Pioneer courses, (iii) Army Headquarters draughtsmanship courses, (iv) Indian military service courses 1939 & 1942. No 11 - Frontier Warfare School, India, Kakul 1939.
    Date: 1939-1942
    Held by: British Library: Asian and African Studies, not available at The National Archives
    Language: English


    Not sure it fits the bill but maybe delve into British Library: Asian and African Studies for other information

    TD

    What sort of training did he do?
    WW2 15th Punjab Regiment Snipers Course Small Arms School Saugor 1941 8 x 6 inch | eBay

    You may also need to explore Indian Army websites but I have had little dealings with that side

    7 Reorganizing and Retraining the Indian Army: May 1942–February 1944 in: Sepoys against the Rising Sun
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2021
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  3. Majid Kayani

    Majid Kayani New Member

    My father was stationed at Sagour India as a young trainer during 1943-1946. We heard a lot of stories from him. He was not British but he was very proud to have served in British Indian Army. I have this old photo of Small Arms School Sagour India. See if any of those 2 British officers in front row is your grand father?

    My Father is 2nd row 2nd right (H I Muhammad Bashir). He passed away in Year 2000 aged 77.

    upload_2022-7-31_20-37-43.jpeg
     
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  4. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Majid,

    A great photo and curious from afar that the staff with one exception (Lt. Col. Grey) were from the Frontier Force Rifles, who would have had much experience from their usual posting - the North West Frontier.

    I note Saugor is a long way from the frontier.
     
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  5. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    The OP author has not logged on since his post, so I will send him a PM to alert him in a moment.

    There are few Google hits.

    1) Referring to the Chindits: The Bricklayers of Column 4 Commando and Arthur Howney short story
    2) It appears (behind a pay wall) in Ch. 7 Reorganizing and Retraining the Indian Army: May 1942–February 1944 See: 7 Reorganizing and Retraining the Indian Army: May 1942–February 1944 in: Sepoys against the Rising Sun
    3) Saugor became the school's home in June 1939, it had been equitation! From: https://www.britishmilitaryhistory....ites/124/2020/08/50-Indian-Tank-Brigade-1.pdf
    4) Two small mentions in an online BJMH article that Saugor was used for jungle training and to build up the fitness of the Chindits. Via: https://networks.h-net.org/node/6888725/pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2022
  6. Tchalmers

    Tchalmers New Member

    Hi,

    Thanks for the response. I will take a look trhough the updated details!
    Realy appreciate the support.
     
  7. Majid Kayani

    Majid Kayani New Member

    Hi David, thanks for reply. Could you please give us any information on any of these staff? I am curious to know more about them.
     
  8. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    I am not an expert on the Indian Army, just interested. From my previous research individuals are hard to identify and research unless they become famous, i.e. awarded medals. Will give a few of them a go later. Standby.
     
  9. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Post 2 & 5 cite Kaushik Roy's book it is not freely available online, except on Google Books and a sentence refers to:
    The Half Yearly Indian Army List October Part II 1945 refers to Saugor as the home of the Small Arms School (India). From: Indian Army Educational and Training Establishments c 1945 - FIBIwiki

    A current Indian Army website shows Saugor closed upon independence: The Official Home Page of the Indian Army

    Refers to the Small Arms School CO during WW": Austin Henry Williams - Wikipedia This will impact online searching as the establishment had several different names! Plus a potted bio:
    From: Brown Pundits

    A NCO who served there, with a famous surname: A.A.J.L.R. - Leader Magazine - Profile

    Three passages by a British officer on training at Saugor in: http://www.brow.on.ca/Books and another refers to mortar training there (on pgs. 40 & 88): https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Changes_and_Chances/_AfBDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq="saugor"+++"Small+Arms+School"&pg=PA88&printsec=frontcover/QuittingIndia/QuittingIntro.htm

    A passage on "bunker busting" taught at Saugor:
    From: The Indian Army, 1939-47: Experience And Development [PDF] [29fi1kcufq7g]
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2022
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  10. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    I have time last night and looked around, concentrating on the two British officers: Lt. Col. C. E. Gray, 3rd Gorkhas and Captain P. W. J. Mulcahy of 7/13 Frontier Force Regiment (FFR). Alas both are not on my usual source: Officers of the Indian Army 1939-1945  -- M

    Nor are they readily found online. This is not unusual.

    I learnt that the Indian Army List is available at The British Library to consult, and although some issues are supposed to be online I failed with them.

    For the Indian NCOs this site advised, alongside explaining the Indian Army Lists that NCO cannot be identified as there are no records available: The Indian Army List - Researching WW2 Indian Army Officers

    Others here may be able to help and of course a family member / person interested will find them now via a Google search (which has happened several times recently).

    I note 3rd Gorkhas remains an Indian Army formation (with an active website) and the FFR is a Pakistani Army formation, although upon independence those units that were not Muslim moved across to India.
     
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  11. JITTER PARTY

    JITTER PARTY Well-Known Member

    I think that many of them would have gained quite a lot of small arms experience fighting the Japanese in Burma!

    You also seem to be confusing the Frontier Force Regiment (FFR) with the Frontier Force Rifles (FF Rif). Different regiments. The above photograph explicitly states that it is of 'The Frontier Force Rifles Weapons Training Staff', hence their preponderance.
     
  12. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Indeed, that will teach me not to publish late evening research the next morning. Thanks.
     
  13. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Some more information (which I started last evening :sleep:).

    Small Arms School (India), Saugor.
    Indian Army List April 1946
    2440 - Apr 1946 .jpg

    Lt Col Charles Edward Gray.
    Army List September 1916
    2008 Sep 1916.jpg
    Prisoner of War in Italy.
    From An Extraordinary Italian Imprisonment: The Brutal Truth of Campo 21, 1942-3 by Brian Lett,
    “Lieutenant Colonel C. E. Gray, 3 Ghurka Rifles, was the SBO”.

    Date of Birth: 2-1-96
    1st Commission: 18-4-16
    Service Element: 28y. 258d.
    Date of Rank: 18-4-42
    33 = Qualified in Small Arms, 37 = Distinguished in Machine Gun, 52 = Passed the Course of Animal Transport Instruction (from List of References Indian Army List July 1936).
    Indian Army List October 1945
    48c Oct 1945.jpg 85 - Oct 1945.jpg

    EDIT:
    Escaped from PoW camp, later Brigadier. Died 1966. See:
    Papers of Brig Charles Edward Gray, Indian Army, 3rd Gurhha Rifles, and Mrs Gray.

    Lt PWJ Mulcahy.
    Indian Army List October 1945
    1591 - Oct 1945.jpg

    Subdr Muhammad Yusaf.
    Indian Army List April 1946
    1596a - Apr 1946 .jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
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  14. Majid Kayani

    Majid Kayani New Member

    That is so fascinating. Very happy to see the records. Thank you so much. Although my father's name is no where to see in the records (perhaps because he was only a JCO) but still seeing Col. C. E. Grey and Cap PWJ Mulcahy and especially Sub Muhammad Yusaf's names in the records made me very happy. I heard C. E. Grey and Cap Mulcahy's names thousands of time from my father.
    That photo above is a treasure to me. I am proud to be son of M Bashir who was a great man and very organised person. I was raised by him in Pakistan and now I am Australian Citizen residing in Australia since 2004.
     
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  15. Majid Kayani

    Majid Kayani New Member

    Hi David, not sure but I believe the FF Rifles was different from FFR in Pakistan. My father became part of 1st FF in Pakistan after India/Pakistan partition. My father also told us about 59th Scinde Rifles (AKA GARBAR 59) (he told us it was the old name of 1st FF).
     
  16. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Majid,

    Always good to have a satisfied, happy update. Plus, Jitter Paty's riposte:
     
  17. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Lt. Col. Gray, 3 Gurkhas, appears in my research on the battle 1/7/1942 @ Deir El Shein, where he was taken prisoner along with several officers and two hundred men. The 18th Indian Brigade was overwhelmed. See a "work in progress": Deir el Shein sources - July 1942
     

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