Originally posted by harribobs@Apr 28 2005, 04:10 PM really?? which territories did they expand into during 1914- 1918? also the japanese military did not mistreat their russian prisoners during the RJW [post=33691]Quoted post[/post] 1905 Japan annexed Korean Peninsula. Japanese influence extended into Outer Manchuria in the wake of the Russian Revolution of 1917, but Outer Manchuria had reverted to Soviet Russian control by 1925. Japan took advantage of the disorder following the Russian Revolution to occupy Outer Manchuria but Soviet successes and American economic pressure forced Japanese withdrawal. However the respectful treatment towards POW,.. was requested by Imperial Command on 1880. but these,.. didnot last long. bear in mind,..1905 Russo-Japan war was not any part of Great war (both Russia Empire and Japanese were in the same side during the war). The fact that in 1880 Imperial Japan decreed to treat POW in civilizd manner in order to be accepted and compared as any western nations,.. however this civilized thing,.doesnot last very long. Ask the Koreans and the chinese how the Japanese treated them as early as 20th Century. Interesting context here in the terms of barbaric and uncivilized thingy,.. different way of life, from one to another, it doesnt mean one is wrong to another. For one people might be wrong for another is not. Regards Gumalangi
1905 Japan annexed Korean Peninsula. Japanese influence extended into Outer Manchuria in the wake of the Russian Revolution of 1917, but Outer Manchuria had reverted to Soviet Russian control by 1925. Japan took advantage of the disorder following the Russian Revolution to occupy Outer Manchuria but Soviet successes and American economic pressure forced Japanese withdrawal. you see my point, your original comment was incorrect you can waffle all you want but japanese expansionism did not start in the meiji period neither did their disgusting barbarity
Originally posted by harribobs@May 1 2005, 11:59 PM you see my point, your original comment was incorrect you can waffle all you want but japanese expansionism did not start in the meiji period neither did their disgusting barbarity [post=33840]Quoted post[/post] i do not think you get my point, i did not and never mention the expansionism was started from meiji period. However i did mention that traditional value of Japanese Military conduct was remains. Japanese was tried to be civilized in accordance to the western counterpart's standard. but not for long. Pls do read the the rest of my post. The military tradition and samurai code of conduct, was inseparable before 1870 and Samurai tradition was officially abolished in the early 1870s, but it was not forgotten. if you think the occupation in some parts of China and Korea was done in civilized manner, which started at Korea as early as 1905 and China as early as 1917. Tell these to the Koreans and the Chinese then, I would like to know the outcome. Regards Gumalangi
There is no "civilized," manner to take, annex, or invade any country. The very action of hostile forces stepping foot on foreign soil itself is a barbaric move. War- in its entirety, is barbaric, savage, and uncivilized. It is the direct result of failed communication. Now, as for the "atrocities," Japan commited, this did not happen against the allied POW's for quite a while. Against Chinese civlians, sure, it did occur often, but the mistreatment of the POW's did not occur until Japan began to realize their inevitable loss in WWII. This was because they followed the Geneva Convention which not only outlawed the use of toxic warfare, it placed a strong emphasis that war be coordinated in a "dandy," fashion, which included the proper treatment of captured enemy soldiers. The Japanese began to slaughter allied POW's so that they will not take up arms in the event of liberation. Although the Americans were malnurished, by this time, many of the Japanese troops were as well. -> Take a look at the troops on Iwo Jima, they lived off of one hard biscuit and handfuls of sulfuric water extract a day.
Sorry Ryobreak, That is absolute RUBBISH. And this is exactly what I mean about the Japanese being poorly educated in respect to war crimes perpetrated by the Japanese Armed Forces. I have enjoyed your balanced commentary in other areas of this site.....but this goes a long way to bringing this undone. The atrocities against allied POWs (British, Indian, Australian and local) were happening in the earliest days of the Malayan campaign. Wholesale execution of wounded, beheadings and burning people alive. Take a trip out here to Australia and talk to some of the veterans and families of veterans who lost their lives in Malaya, in Singapore and elsewhere. As I advised before....I suggest you do some reading and start with 'The Bridge at Parit Sulong' by Lynnette Ramsay Silver. Tim
Originally posted by ryobreak@Jun 22 2005, 02:50 AM There is no "civilized," manner to take, annex, or invade any country. The very action of hostile forces stepping foot on foreign soil itself is a barbaric move. War- in its entirety, is barbaric, savage, and uncivilized. It is the direct result of failed communication. Now, as for the "atrocities," Japan commited, this did not happen against the allied POW's for quite a while. Against Chinese civlians, sure, it did occur often, but the mistreatment of the POW's did not occur until Japan began to realize their inevitable loss in WWII. This was because they followed the Geneva Convention which not only outlawed the use of toxic warfare, it placed a strong emphasis that war be coordinated in a "dandy," fashion, which included the proper treatment of captured enemy soldiers. The Japanese began to slaughter allied POW's so that they will not take up arms in the event of liberation. Although the Americans were malnurished, by this time, many of the Japanese troops were as well. -> Take a look at the troops on Iwo Jima, they lived off of one hard biscuit and handfuls of sulfuric water extract a day. [post=35632]Quoted post[/post] and just when did the "Death March" on Bataan take place???? What about the survivors of wake Island? The Japanese committed atrocities against western POWs from Dec 7th 1941, not when the war was lost. Proper treatment of captured enemy soldiers, The Nazis treated their allied prisoners better and they were the architects of Genocide!!! I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your reasoning.
Originally posted by Gotthard Heinrici+Jun 22 2005, 04:29 AM-->(Gotthard Heinrici @ Jun 22 2005, 04:29 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ryobreak@Jun 22 2005, 02:50 AM There is no "civilized," manner to take, annex, or invade any country. The very action of hostile forces stepping foot on foreign soil itself is a barbaric move. War- in its entirety, is barbaric, savage, and uncivilized. It is the direct result of failed communication. Now, as for the "atrocities," Japan commited, this did not happen against the allied POW's for quite a while. Against Chinese civlians, sure, it did occur often, but the mistreatment of the POW's did not occur until Japan began to realize their inevitable loss in WWII. This was because they followed the Geneva Convention which not only outlawed the use of toxic warfare, it placed a strong emphasis that war be coordinated in a "dandy," fashion, which included the proper treatment of captured enemy soldiers. The Japanese began to slaughter allied POW's so that they will not take up arms in the event of liberation. Although the Americans were malnurished, by this time, many of the Japanese troops were as well. -> Take a look at the troops on Iwo Jima, they lived off of one hard biscuit and handfuls of sulfuric water extract a day. [post=35632]Quoted post[/post] and just when did the "Death March" on Bataan take place???? What about the survivors of wake Island? The Japanese committed atrocities against western POWs from Dec 7th 1941, not when the war was lost. Proper treatment of captured enemy soldiers, The Nazis treated their allied prisoners better and they were the architects of Genocide!!! I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your reasoning. [post=35639]Quoted post[/post] [/b] General Homma expected 50,000 fairly healthy troops to be captured. However, he recieved 75,000 soldiers struck with Malaria, these are the same soldiers that were dubbed the "Battling Bastards of Bataan," although they ultimately surrendered on Corridger, where General Wainright was forced to have all American forces in the Phillipines lay down their arms. The Bataan Death March occured because, there were no vehicles to transport the troops, the troops, by Japanese standards, were not physically fit, and, there were 25,000 additional troops to what Homma expected. At the Phillipines many of the soldiers were veterans, and they spoke a dialect called "broken english," or, rather, a little bit of english. Many were friendly, while young raw recruits did indeed kill those who staggered behind. However, General Homma himself followed the Geneva convention to his utmost, and it Lieutanenant Tsuji who gave the unauthorized order to start mistreating the Allied POW's who surrendered in the Phillipines. Blackblue, your idea of executing locals itself is rubbish. All Japanese stationed in the Phillipines were ordered to idealize the "Asia for Asiatics," slogan, and the Fillipinos were forced to plant cotton as well as learn the Japanese dialect and history. The ones that the Japanese did execute were those who sided with the Americans, since the United States had offered freedom to all Filippinos in 1946. Again, most of these things were not authorized orders from Tokyo. What Tokyo had ordered Homma to do was to transport all who surrendered and 'relocate,' them and try to extract information about the allied forces in the Pacific Theater. It was Lieutenant Tsuji who radioed the command to kill the staggering POW's, which struck directly against Homma's orders. "And this is exactly what I mean about the Japanese being poorly educated in respect to war crimes perpetrated by the Japanese Armed Forces. " I don't need to keep repeating myself- I have studied and majored in history under American curriculums. If I only learned from the Japanese education, I won't be able to speak english fluently.
In reference to your assertion that The Japanese strictly followed the Geneva Convention especially on the use of toxic warfare please have a look at this website about Unit 731 which specifically investigated the use of Toxic warfare using prisoners as "guinea pigs"! If they were adherents of the convention then why use prisoners? http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/germwar.htm Here is an article concerning the dissection of American POW's by Japanese Doctors http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/uspow.htm The Historian Chalmers Johnston is quoted as saying: It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 per cent chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 per cent.[1] (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n22/john04_.html)
Who the-hell cares whether Tokio gave direct orders or not? Same can be said to excuse Hitler, since there isn't ANY document, paper, recording or whatever in which he orders the physical extermination of European Jews. Also, again, are you trying to make us buy the idea that the Japanese military of the 1930s and 1940s, with their military Samurai code, ignored and disobbeyes superior direct orders? This was because they followed the Geneva Convention which not only outlawed the use of toxic warfare, it placed a strong emphasis that war be coordinated in a "dandy," fashion, which included the proper treatment of captured enemy soldiers. Though I am not entirely sure, Japan never signed the Geneva convention. And if it did, then didn't follow it at any time during the war. The Japanese began to slaughter allied POW's so that they will not take up arms in the event of liberation. False… also, does that apply too to Chinese civilians? General Homma expected 50,000 fairly healthy troops to be captured. However, he recieved 75,000 soldiers struck with Malaria, these are the same soldiers that were dubbed the "Battling Bastards of Bataan," although they ultimately surrendered on Corridger, where General Wainright was forced to have all American forces in the Phillipines lay down their arms. The Bataan Death March occured because, there were no vehicles to transport the troops, the troops, by Japanese standards, were not physically fit, and, there were 25,000 additional troops to what Homma expected. At the Phillipines many of the soldiers were veterans, and they spoke a dialect called "broken english," or, rather, a little bit of english. Many were friendly, while young raw recruits did indeed kill those who staggered behind. However, General Homma himself followed the Geneva convention to his utmost, and it Lieutanenant Tsuji who gave the unauthorized order to start mistreating the Allied POW's who surrendered in the Phillipines. This sounds like an apology or justifying of some kind? Like: 'there were too many Soviet POWs to feed, then 3 million died!"… All Japanese stationed in the Phillipines were ordered to idealize the "Asia for Asiatics," slogan, and the Fillipinos were forced to plant cotton as well as learn the Japanese dialect and history. The ones that the Japanese did execute were those who sided with the Americans, since the United States had offered freedom to all Filippinos in 1946. Does this apply to the hundreds of thousands of Chinese and Malayan people worked and starved to death?
Well it seems you try to justify genocide because you do not know the truth! You have a LOT of learning to do!!!! If you have studied in America that may explain your lack of knowledge about the Malaya campaign, as it is rarely covered in US curriculums. I have not studied in depth what occurred in the Phillipines, however your contentions here seem at odds with everything I have read on the subject. Making scapegoats of junior officers is the course the Japanese high command and government often took. It seems you have chosen to do the same. I also am a student of history. I have read extensively in respect to what occurred in Malaya, Singapore and the islands South. I have travelled extensively in Malaysia, Singapore, New Guinea, New Britain, Indonesia etc. and researched the war there. I have heard first hand accounts of Japanese atrocities from witnesses and victims including local Malays, Chinese, Thais and Indians. I have been to Parit Sulong, Sandakan and the Thai-Burma Railway and seen the war graves and memorials to murdered allied servicemen, servicewomen and members of the local population. They are all across South East Asia. As a student of history you should know that you should NEVER make baseless assumptions when you have not studied an area in depth and have the relevant evidence. For you to claim what these murdering bastards did is 'rubbish' highlights how sadly ignorant you are and shows disrespect to all veterans of the war in the Pacific. Rgds Tim
Strange, then, that upon its capture the hospital at Singapore was ravaged, with surgeons and patients alike killed, and soon after Australian nurses and wounded Commonwealth soldiers were machine gunned, if Japan fought from the outset an "honourable" war. This is to say nothing of the treatment meted out to subject Asian nationals. I can understand a barbarous militaristic regime taking control in Japan and treating its own in a similar fashion, but it excuses nothing. The only positive contribution the Axis made was to design chic uniforms for the SS.
Originally posted by DirtyDick@Jun 22 2005, 08:20 PM Strange, then, that upon its capture the hospital at Singapore was ravaged, with surgeons and patients alike killed, and soon after Australian nurses and wounded Commonwealth soldiers were machine gunned, if Japan fought from the outset an "honourable" war. This is to say nothing of the treatment meted out to subject Asian nationals. I can understand a barbarous militaristic regime taking control in Japan and treating its own in a similar fashion, but it excuses nothing. The only positive contribution the Axis made was to design chic uniforms for the SS. [post=35690]Quoted post[/post] Not entirely. German scientists of that time contributed greatly to both medical and technological advances of modern date. Sure, like I've stated before, the Japanese followed the rules of "kill all, loot all, burn all," in China. However, against Americans, they did not massacre them, for, General Homma, Japanese commander in the Phillipines at the time, strictly followed the Geneva Convention. Yes, many generals ignored orders from Tokyo. In the Japanese navy they followed Tokyo's orders to the letter. The army consisted of farmers, raw recruits, and many poorly trained individuals, especially towards the end of the war. Generals acted on a self-gain basis, and I, even as a Japanese person, can publically tell you that there is more than one time when the Japanese army deliberately ignored Tokyo's orders. Tokyo never issued a command to "rape chinese women," or "bayonet the babies and boil them." As you can see, when written, people can question whether or not you're insane. But to the Japanese army stationed in China, they looked upon the Chinese as an inferior race, this was the reasoning behind it. By no means did it justify the slaughter, but, the Bushido mentality was imbued across the minds of many individuals. Not even a century had passed since Samurai reigned in Japan, you can see easily why it was still so dominant across the minds of many Japanese. In that text based on experiments and lab testings in China by By Nicholas D. Kristof, it clearly states that most of the subjects were criminals or communist sympathizers. Bad people who deserved a bad fate, perhaps a bit too extreme, nevertheless we've cleaned up some communists for America so you don't have to deal with them in the Cold War. <_< Hmm... as far as I can see this document going, Japan never indeed used such biological weapons, they merely experimented, and most of the test subjects were criminals wanted by law anyways. I'm sure that all countries with criminals facing death penalties may choose the option of the rope, or, have them participate in a form of 'experiment.' Of course there is no evidence, but someone who's sentenced to death will face it whether its starvation, an electric chair, becoming a lab experiment, etc.
Are you sure you are Japanese...or are you actually from another planet? You certainly seem to have a penchant with trying to justify war crimes!! Sorry....your views do not hold any water with me....and I doubt they will with anyone else either. Have you actually spoken to any American veterans? Strictly followed the Geneva convention my foot!!! And justifying the killing of innocent people in horrible circumstances because they had been jailed for some offence.....or were communist? Nice one.....I am sure the Chinese people I know would be impressed no end. I am finding your views and ill considered clap trap increasingly offensive. We're not dealing with Mr Ryuujin Mk2 here are we? Heres a tip for free.....why don't you log off, get a new user name and start all over again. You have made some valid and interesting points in other threads and it is a travesty to see your responses degenerate to this garbage. Rgds Tim
Originally posted by ryobreak+Jun 22 2005, 09:01 PM-->(ryobreak @ Jun 22 2005, 09:01 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DirtyDick@Jun 22 2005, 08:20 PM Strange, then, that upon its capture the hospital at Singapore was ravaged, with surgeons and patients alike killed, and soon after Australian nurses and wounded Commonwealth soldiers were machine gunned, if Japan fought from the outset an "honourable" war. This is to say nothing of the treatment meted out to subject Asian nationals. I can understand a barbarous militaristic regime taking control in Japan and treating its own in a similar fashion, but it excuses nothing. The only positive contribution the Axis made was to design chic uniforms for the SS. [post=35690]Quoted post[/post] Not entirely. German scientists of that time contributed greatly to both medical and technological advances of modern date. In that text based on experiments and lab testings in China by By Nicholas D. Kristof, it clearly states that most of the subjects were criminals or communist sympathizers. Bad people who deserved a bad fate, perhaps a bit too extreme, nevertheless we've cleaned up some communists for America so you don't have to deal with them in the Cold War. <_< face it whether its starvation, an electric chair, becoming a lab experiment, etc. [post=35693]Quoted post[/post] [/b] German scientists "of the time" also conducted some of the most barbaric "experiments" in history, using prisoners at Dachau concentration camp. You might want to read the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial testimony (it's on the web) on that subject. Start with the testimony of Czech Dr. Franz Blaha, a Dachau inmate, who describes the freezing experiments on human guinea pigs. Other German scientists gave us the V-2, which gave us dismembered body parts sticking from trees in London parks after the V-2s came down. As for that crack about "We've cleaned up some communists for America so you don't have to deal with them in the Cold War," I devoutly hope you intend that as humor. However, it's not very funny. I'm sure that the relatives of the victims of those experiments would not share the laugh. The concept of "cruel and unusual punishment" comes to mind.
Not entirely. German scientists of that time contributed greatly to both medical and technological advances of modern date. Scientist that had been brought up in Imperial or Weimar Germany. By 1945, Germany was running out of qualified scientists and engineers, thanks to the Nazi obsession with DESTROYING GERMAN CULTURE.
Japanese barbarity is a byword for mans inhumanity to man, it is a reputation earned with the blood of the citizens of every country they conquered. Co=prosperity sphere? It wasnt the European Union they were building, it was an Imperial Empire, and an evil one at that. Revisionism be damned, they were evil little f****rs. Pete
Why did you guys have to open this thread again? I had not seen it before and was much happier before reading this thread. The absolute bull shit some have written is remarkable. The japs raped & murdered their way through every territory they were in no matter whether they controlled the area or not. With Civilians and Soldiers murdered in many various ways including being tied to trees and used as bayonet practise. Some here have written such absolute crap. Are they jap revisionists?
Hi Cobber, There are other "revisionist" threads much worse than this however I can assure you that their attempt to cleanse the war time Japanese of any blame did not wash in those either.
