Have obtained Great Uncle's service Record and am drowning in abbreviations - can anyone help please? He is posted as part of 8th RTR to join .....RWCGA (??)... to Egypt 25/10/1942. Am also unsure of his Service Trade - apologies if am mis-typing: These change and have new dates by them. T/M Dvr/Dor ? Class II 'c' TTTMUS GNR OP Class III T.T. Gnr/op 'C' Class II TT Dux or Dut? op Class III Gp 'c' Does any of that make any sense to you?? Thank you in advance
Hello, Others may be able to add to or correct these comments. The 5 letter code RWCGA is the draft that he was allocated to to move to the Middle East. I am uncertain about some of the abbreviations in the trade descriptions, but it looks to me that he was a gunner/operator. That is, he would have fired the gun following the tank commander's instructions and would also have been the radio operator in the tank. Tank crews were trained in more than one role so that the tank could still fight if one of the crew were incapacitated. Thanks, I hope this helps.
Having re-read your post, it may be(taking into account possible misreadings, that he was at the start and the end a Driver/Operator. The class is an indication of how good he had shown himself to be in these roles during assessments(?).
CStevens just a shade off kilter here as the first is that of the MAIN driver classed as a 11 from 111 Driver /Mechanic which accounts for change upwards Similar with Gunner who can be Gunner/ mech or Gunner / Operator again Class 11 from 111 mean he was first in line as driver but not able to be gunner - loader and operator at the same Time as like the rest of us - only had two hands The last is probably the Dvr/operator - who was trained in all the others jobs and was acting commander as well as loading the main gun - turret machine gun - smoke discharger - inventory of ammunition and was expected to have more than two hands in also making the tea - on time a Co-Driver was any spare gunner/op - fire the machine gun - and make the dinner My job was that of Dvr/Op class 11 which meant I was best paid apart from the Commander who was usually a Lt - Sgt to Corporal All in all it was fun Cheers
Thank you for replies. Am trying to piece together 'order' of countries served in for 8th RTR I have the countries Egypt Palestine Syria Italy Greec and Austria - not sure of the correct order - can anyone help please?
Thanks to Tom for the right info, which was a big help to me too! Tom-did you ever go to Castlemartin/Linney Head?
Rerun Castlemartin was strictly for gunners - we tried to avoid those places like the plague - did all our Tank training at Barnard Castle with the Horse Guards..with some help from RTR and Signals Cheers
C Stevens Nearly right on 8th RTR…….1941 - 42 = Western Desert; Palestine- Syria - Egypt = 1943-'44; Italy 1944 -'45 They were in Syria when the 7th Armoured Bde was re-formed when 6th RTR got back from Burma and with 2nd RTR went off to Italy and was main support for 46th and 56th Divs at Croce and Gemmano where they all took a beating. Major Stu Hamilton M.C. has a good account of their activities in his book "Armoured Odessey" - pub. Donovan - London -ISBN 1- 871085-30-6…..and like most Tankies - it's a hoot Cheers
So, just to check - were Austria and Greece on route during war or after - want to be clear before I share info with my mum whose uncle I am researching.
The second Greece started around the november of '44 when the communists tried to take over and 4th Indian went over - much to Alanbrooke's disgust as he KNEW that it would expand and sure enough 4th Brit Div - 46th RTR and others followed and Tito was hammered back into place…..Austria happened after the Germans surrendered on May 2nd '45 and a corps of British troops were sent in to sort them out 78th Div went SW to Spittal- 46th Div SE to Graz and 6th Armoured north to Knittelfeld and were held up by the Russians for three weeks until they regained their sector at the Semmering Pass et al Cheers
Thanks again Tom - I so want to be accurate in preserving the information for future generations - so your input MUCH appreciated. Clare
Have just found he is named on a photo - on a Facebook Group dedicated to a Horace Arthur Penhelog Parry who also served in the 8 RTR. It feels like the pieces of puzzle are coming together at last.
Hi C Stevens Assuming that 8 RTR was his first posting outside the UK, then as Tom correctly says, if he did go to Greece then it would have been from 44/45. Three armoured regiments went into Greece October 1944. 40th, 46th and 50th RTR, forming the majority of the 23rd Armoured Brigade Group. They were originally sent there as 'peacekeepers' and as such, were dismounted (ie. no tanks) and re-trained in Palestine as infantry by instructors from 11th Kings Royal Rifle Corps (11 KRRC). Their brigade's only mechanised infantry battalion.Whilst 2nd Independent Parachute Brigade harrassed the German's retreat out Northern Greece, the three 'tank' regiments, maintained law and order whilst helping with the distribution of relief supplies to the many hundreds and thousands of staving Greecians. Things didn't all go to plan when a civil war broke out between the British backed Greek Government and a communist backed Peoples Liberation Army (ELAS). At one point ELAS effectively held all of Greece apart from one square mile of the centre of Athens. But when three infantry divisions (4th British, 4th Indian and 46th British), were brought in from North Africa and Italy, the insurgency was brought to an end in 37 days. I was a vicious and nasty insurgency with many casualties on both sides. If you are unfamiliar with Greece of 1944, I have attached Field Marshall Alexander's report at http://ww2talk.com/f...her-in-law-sas/ 23rd Armoured Brigade stayed in Greece until April/May 1946. So how your Great Uncle ended up in Austria remains a mystery. A lot of the infantry and thieir Reconnaisance Regiments (armoured cars) went back to Italy in spring of 1945 and quite possibly went into Austria from there. There are a few recce experts out there who should be able to fill in the gaps. Hope this helps. Gus
Gmyles perhaps the mystery can be solved if he was in Austria in June 1946 - as we held the first British Army Tattoo in the Gardens of the Schoenbrunn Palace at that time as many regiments sent in participants from all over the place - we managed to collect 10,000 pounds which in Austrian Schillings was around 400K which was used to send some 2400 schoolchildren to the country for good fresh air and food….The British Army did a great deal to offset the atrocities of the Russians until 1955 when they disappeared from Austria - virtually overnight - which is another great story altogether but would be banned if I told it on the forum …. Cheers
All very interesting. On looking at service record - it appears he was transferred to the 40 RTR 30/7/45 - so I guess that is where Austria comes in? Am sorry to be such a novice in all this - I have ordered the 'Armoured Odyssey' Book - and hope that puts things into order for me. From Oct 1945 - there is reference to '28 days leave to uk CTB Entitled Med Allce' and then being 'Detrained Milan Ex Leave to UK Ent'l'd Medrn Allce' 'Medically examined' and finally 'Entrained Milan for UK and SOS CMF. Class A released C.T.B. Entitled Meditrn. Allce' Not sure if that is significant or standard release terms??? Any ideas?
Cstevens There was an allowance for being in Italy i.e Mediterranean Allowance - think it was about 3 d pence per day - and the minute you set foot out of Italy - that allowance disappeared faster than you can shake a stick……..same with the 3pence per day for being in action as the minute you were KIA - WIA - on leave etc that also disappeared at the speed of light- you will note that no one has measured the speed of dark for all the scientists we have... Cheers
Again - thank you - so much that I didn't know! I did read on another thread on this site that CTB might stand for Central Training Battalion?? - just not sure why all the coming and going to Milan (if that is what it means) ie retrained / entrained - does that mean by actual 'train' or training??
CStevens After the war finished Milan became a major train junction for all who were going on to the UK or Paris - there were so many VIP's going that we had to send the 17/21st Lancers to act as housemaids to make sure they were "entrained ' on time…..we peasants also used Milan as a watering point as we started our Journey from Austria via Villach -Udine - Padua - Vicenza - Milan - Martigny - Geneva - Dijon - Paris - Boulogne - Dover - it was a three day jaunt…with Oranges served by national dressed young ladies at Geneva at 4 a.m. Cheers
Ok - so actual 'trains'!! Thank you. I did work out a reference to LIAP - and learnt what Python meant - I am learning and am very grateful for the updates. I am busy adding to my notes about the Service Records - so I can explain them to rest of family. Am aware that if I just handed the service records to my mum - then she will not get as much from them - however if I have tried to find out what different things mean - it will mean so much more. Hence my questions!! Thanks all
