Kangaroos

Also being a Canadian invention; it appears to have been adopted by the (home) British army and introduced in limited squadrons?


The British never converted any of their "own" older Shermans under the same generic name, did they???

 

Kangaroos are considered 'Canadian' since the first incarnation was the 'defrocked' Priests - redundant 105mm self-propelled guns - used by the Canadians. Subsequently, obsolete Canadian Ram gun tanks were converted to the classic Kangaroo; these were not used exclusively by Canadians.

On the Italian Front, the same principles were applied to Priests and Shermans. Kangaroos in Italy has some very good information. It might be worth mentioning that turretless Honeys were used in North Africa and beyond, particularly for recce where crewmembers might want to dismount, so the concept of a 'heavy carrier' is a bit older than the Kangaroo itself.

 

Had a thought (don't all gasp...)....leading on from something I was wondering some time ago...

Welded-hull Shermans could get the extra applique armour welded on to their sponsons over the vulnerable ammo stowage during the Upgrade Progam; could cast-hull Shermans???

If not - therefore...was their use as Kangaroos not a smart way of using "aging" (as in becoming uncompetitive) tanks? I'm wondering because coming at the applique armour question from a tangent, I can't think offhand of ever seeing a pic of a welded-hull Kangaroo...

 

Had a thought (don't all gasp...)....leading on from something I was wondering some time ago...

Welded-hull Shermans could get the extra applique armour welded on to their sponsons over the vulnerable ammo stowage during the Upgrade Progam; could cast-hull Shermans???

If not - therefore...was their use as Kangaroos not a smart way of using "aging" (as in becoming uncompetitive) tanks? I'm wondering because coming at the applique armour question from a tangent, I can't think offhand of ever seeing a pic of a welded-hull Kangaroo...


hiya PR,

The Grizzly/Ram was a cast hull wasnt it?

Not sure how relevent the oplique armour was to the Kangaroo since it was to protect the ammo which of course wasnt there. Wasnt it used pretty much like a modern APC, which are supposed to withstand small arms and splinters, which im sure was just fine.

One thing Ive often thought with the Ram was that some (mk1 ??) had that little machine gun turret, which I guess was a right pain on a gun tank but may well have come into its own on the Kangaroo.

The big question is why no one though of it before. I mean in western Europe where there is (generaly) plenty of cover its one thing, but inthe desert or on the steppe where there is little for infantry, would have been brilliant!

Kev

Kev

 

Kev
which I guess was a right pain on a gun tank but may well have come into its own on the Kangaroo.


My memory tells me that every Kangaroo was armed with at least one 30.mm Browning mounted fore and usually one 50 mm Browning mounted aft.
The Honey tank on which I went into action was certainly armed in this fashion and the 50 was intended for use against un-friendly aircraft.

 

Ron,

Just a quick question.

Were the 30 and 50 calibre guns attached to the tank Turret ring, providing movement all round or fixed on a cradle mount like the tanks?

Regards
Tom

 

Tom

Ron,

Just a quick question.

Were the 30 and 50 calibre guns attached to the tank Turret ring, providing movement all round or fixed on a cradle mount like the tanks?

Regards
Tom
__________________


Quick answer

The guns were on fixed, but "swivel" mounts.

Cheers !

Ron

 

Ron,

Thanks for clearing up the gun question.

Regards
Tom

 

V-P, thanks for the pics!

Now - here's another question for someone - were these gas (oxy-acetylene) or arc-welded??? Did either process affect the hardening of the armour???

 

V-P, thanks for the pics!

Now - here's another question for someone - were these gas (oxy-acetylene) or arc-welded??? Did either process affect the hardening of the armour???

Arc welding here. Though I had always thought that this picture showed the applique, it doesn't. He appears to be repairing the sandshields.


IWM H 37820

PHOTOGRAPHER:
Lockeyear (Capt)
War Office official photographer
TITLE:
THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45
COLLECTION NUMBER:
4700-37
PERIOD:
Second World War
DATE:
25 April 1944
TYPE:
Official photograph
DESCRIPTION:
Sherman tanks being maintained at No. 8 AFV Depot, Leicester, 25 April 1944.


It would also appear from that NA 75 article that the armour was not adversely affected by the use of the gas axe.
It is interesting to note in this photograph that notwithstanding the heat to which the turret has been subjected due to the cutting of the main aperture and the rebating, heat transference to the main mass of the turret is the slight that mass of the turret is so slight that the original paint has been to a distance of only “½ / 1/5" from the cut.

 

Phaeton

Guess you are probably right but at best this would be conjecture, we are talking about events of 60 odd years ago

Cheers

Ron

I've done some digging at TNA and had time to go through the 4th hussars war diary to get some answers regarding how Kangaroos were issued. I've been pleasently surprised with the answers I found. I'm getting better at WW2 research as i progress, bear in mind i'm a psychologist.

As usual with me, modern thinking got in the way of an appreciation of how things worked before IFV's were fully intergrated into mechanised units as they are today.

2 cldm war diary. March 20th:

"The arm commander (Lt Gen. Sir Richard McCreary. Bt K.C.B and D.S.O. M.C.), the divisional commander (Major. Gen S.N.Whitfield. D.S.O.) and the Bde commander visited the companies doing “Kangaroo” training during the morning."

"In the afternoon during an exercise with the “Kangaroos” one of the Kangaroos carrying a section was blown up on a minefield. It was estimated that the Kangaroo ran over four or six (Twenty) RIEGEL 43 mines. The whole crew were injured including four killed."

Now you can see where these exercises took place on my google map here

Compare this to the war diary of the 4th hussars:

"19/3/1945 A Sqn trained with 5th Royal West Kents. C Sqn trained with 24th Gds Bde.

20/3/1945 A Sqn trained with 5th RWK. C Sqn trained with 2nd Coldstream Guards. 1200 – One Kangaroo carrying Guardsmen of the 2nd Coldstream exploded on a dump of mines causing the complete wreckage of the Kangaroo and killing 3 Guardsmen and wounding 5. The Comdr was killed and the driver seriously wounded."

<O:pSo I now know that C Sqn had the kangaroos involved in the above incident. It appears from the 24th guards brigade war diary that 1 troop of kangaroos were loaned to the brigade to come under direct control of the brigade, along with other troops.</O:p

So checking 24th (guards) brigade diary I find this:
</O:p
<O:p</O:p
<O:p4<SUP>th</SUP> April: Codeword MARROW comes into force, bringing the following under our comd: Tp 4 (8 kangaroos), ‘B’ Sqn NIH, Tp 4.2” Mortars RSR, Tp ‘E’ Bty RSR, 42 Fd Coy RE, 7 Fd Sqn, 8 Fd Sqn, Br tp 6 armd Div, Br tp 78 Div, 2 ARKS, 1 AVRE, Pl 4.2” Mortars Cheshire, and ROVER PADDY. ARTY SP consists of 64 Fd Regt RA and two Med Regts.
</O:p
I know that these Kangaroos were converted shermans, as a personal diary from the 2nd Coldstream I have, mentions them.

Whether or not they were used by the 24th in actual combat... I'm not sure. They are mentioned in the 4th hussars diary as being used by 40 commando in operation ROAST (the capture of MENATE) on the 1st of april, and all their Tps seem to be being used by other brigades afterwards (implying they were not required by the 24th and moved on)... but it certainly answers my original question, they were most definitely not ingrained units and had a parent unit: they were just loaned out to infantry Bn's as needed for the spring offensive.

 

Attached are a couple of PDF files sent to me many years ago by Bill Miller the Regimental Archivist for the
1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment

One, Converted Ram Census, is a list of Ram Tanks converted to Kangaroos and 17 pdr Gun Towers.

The other, 1CACR Markings, is a list of census numbers and photos of named Kangaroos.
If anyone can confirm the name of the last Kangaroo TERBECKY RODA? on page 9 I would appreciated it.

Cheers

Kevin