Killing Prisoners

I'm certain that a previous thread dealt with the distinction between individual, random acts and the systemic practice in those indoctrinated units like the 12th SS.

 

Gents,

Horses for courses.

There are a number of accounts where repatriated POW's were asked if they were treated fairly and if not, the Guard who was pointed out received rough treatment, some terminal, without any further reference to the POW, even though they were then POW's themselves. The repatriated POW's learnt not to say too much.

Did many of the Bomber Command aircrew landing in Germany towards the latter years of the war receive proper treatment? The army, police and even the Luftwaffe being told directly not to intervene with the actions of the German people, stringing them up from lamp posts, Hitler Youth clubbing them to death, etc. There was a very high number of RAF POW's who fell into German hands who never made it back at the war end, either upon capture, through escape or in the camps or during the marches to Freedom.

Equally, what about in a house clearance situation. Wounded targets being left in a room who could still kill. They put the hands up but as you move into the next room? No brainer really.

Regards,

Nick
KenFentonsWar.com

 

I don't think it is the same, exactly. On the one hand you have men who get out of hand with the fury of the moment, when it's hard to switch the killing instinct off; on the other, you have an organized act that was ordered by fairly senior officers (Wilhelm Mohnke in this case) and was also part of a pattern of behavior by the Waffen SS as a whole. Despite individual cases, I see no pattern of approved, organized, or ordered atrocity in the British and Australian units I've studied. There are degrees of atrocity just as there are degrees of other kinds of murder and manslaughter. On the whole I agree with what someone else here said; despite all you can and should do to prevent it men will sometimes violate the rules.

 

If nothing else, this thread quite rightly reminds us all of incidents like the shameful, but, I like to think, isolated incident at Biscari.

It will never, however, alter my earnest conviction that when it came to behaving like utter bastards. the leaders of the Third Reich always had us beaten hands down.

I concede therefore that it should come as no surprise that this affected the behaviour of troops under their command, which included the sometimes horrific treatment of prisoners by certain of their units.

As always, and I suppose, wearing my veteran's cap, I will always deeply resent any implication that suggests that human nature being what it is, the Allied troops were ever in the same league as their German counterparts.

Ron

 

As I said, it's a symptom of units that are poorly led and ill-disciplined. Except for SS, where it was a cultural issue.

 

I'd be interested in seeing this aspect of the War Diary. Could you post it please?

 

When entering this debate I have to be fair and show warts and all. Do I think it is a lack of discipline and control - maybe in some cases, truth is there are two paths followed here, the continuation of a firefight after stop fire has been given and cold blooded deliberate murder. Not wishing to defend or otherwise trying to pin a label on complex situations donkeys years after the event with often no more than hearsay or anecdotal unsupported evidence seems a hiding to nothing to me. However, history has a way of making life difficult. 1970s the press and some parliamentarians were demanding to re-open the case of Batang Kali -Malaya 1948. 1976 back on our old ground - the Bogside, Londonderry, with headlines talking of murdering Scots Guardsmen on our streets. The 1948 incident was officially covered up - the high command were not too unhappy at the incident as it might show they meant business. Fighting Johnny Foreigner a long way from home without the press coverage of today meant we could spray defoliant over villages in 1948 - then someone blew the gaff and the chain closed links all the way to the top. The word regiment is a longer word to it's members means family - we all have skeletons in the cupboard. Did it impact on us in NI - yes of course treading very carefully as the press waited for a wrong footed move to increase the pressure to reopen the 1948 incident.

 

I agree with Wills and Combover I probably could if I looked through my WD collection again. I think this debate show very well that the good ones are not always good and the bad ones not always bad.

If bad treatment of POW's are wrong (shooting or beating) maybe we should wonder why it happened in Iraq and Afghanistan and it was the most civilised armies in the world who did it.

 

Whilst this particular thread is a Real Headscratcher and Heart searcher, with arguments for both understanding and not understanding the reasons POW's were sometimes killed.

I was truly shocked several years ago when reading my late Fathers Regimental Diaries and posted this Link.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/16031-taking-prisoners-or-not-4th-recce-war-diaries/

Common sense prevailed, but it could have been very different.

It was the mindset of the British Officer in Charge that I found difficult to understand and wonder just what he would have done in a similar Situation to that which the Germans found themselves to be in.

Regards
Tom

 

My great grandfather who served with the Airborne Forces openly admitted before he died that he was involved in executing German prisoners, not because they were blood thirsty but due to certain operations having no chain to deal with prisoners they were left with two choices and allowing the enemy to go free I suppose wasn't viable.

Don

 

One oddity I acquired a while back is a unit-produced battle drill manual of indeterminate date (the Calgary Highlanders' war diary might provide some clues), though it probably pre-dates the official manual Battle School printed in July 1942. The content of the two versions is substantially identical, but I have picked up one difference so far:





Note 2 if you missed it! The hand-amendment to the 'original' is advice to leave a man in the hall because it's the most dangerous place in the house. The question remains whether it was 47 Div or the Calgary Highlanders that originated the policy?

For completeness, The Instructors' Handbook on Fieldcraft and Battle Drill (circa October 1942) offers no advice on prisoners in this section.

 

Like others here, I think there is a definite distinction to be made. Yes, killing any prisoner is wrong and is never justifiable but there is a difference in the real world, whereby men have found it difficult to switch from one frame of mind to the the opposite.

The definitive distinction can be made when looking at the actions of the 12th SS and their opponents, the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, as Canuck says. There were instances of both sides having committed crimes during the battles that raged, but the 12th SS took it to whole new level. 'In the heat of battle' is not something that can be applied to say, their actions at Mouen. They found 7 or 8 Canadian soldiers roaming lost around no man's land after the battle of Le Mesnil Patry. This was nearly a whole week after the battle. They then transported them roughly 3 miles away and after a few hours marched them through town and executed them all. At no point was there any shots fired between the two groups of men, when they came face-to-face, save for the shameful part at the end.

Yes, a definite distinction to be made.

 

Did a bit of trawling in my memoirs and found this:

Monday 14th. May 1945
Moved off at 8 am. Stopped for night just North of Udine at small village that had been bombed by us. Partisans swarmed all over the place, one with Robin Hood beard.

The Partisans were something new in my experience. In my estimation these were genuine heroes, to have been captured by the Germans would have meant certain death for themselves and probably their families. Without exception they were all bearded and dressed in the most motley of clothing. They were armed with mainly captured German weapons and at this point in their lives they were living a dream come true. We saw one small group who had recently captured a German soldier. They were pushing him along in front of them to lord knows where. The soldier was grey in face as if he knew what fate awaited him and no one in our party made the slightest move to ask them what was going on.

Ron

 

Just as matter of interest could you tell us which units and what prisoners? Thanks

 

49 Indian Infantry Brigade which made part of 23 Indian Infantry Division. I am afraid I cannot remember which WD I read it in and work do not give me time to look through at the moment I am afraid. But the reason was the Indonesians did not necessary wear uniforms since they had none. Meaning they were considered armed civilians. Maybe it helped too that the 49th was nearly overrun just after it arrived and its Brigadier murdered.

 

Ok thanks for that, I understand what you are saying.

This is not to excuse it but Major Dube (Indian) of D Company 5/6 Rajputana Rifles claimed his company had been "massacred" after surrendering to Irregular Indonesian Independence Forces - also claims of Maharattas and Rajputanas being "literally butchered".

Another officer in the Rajputanas does say there was now an element of revenge - his Hindu soldiers had no qualms about killing Muslim Indonesians.

It always seems to be worse when Irregulars come up against Regular forces and both descend to barbarism.

 

Roger that. While on Java a massacre which to me become tragic is the Bekassi Affair. KG-520 made a crashlanding with 5 RAF crewmember and 20 passengers from 2 Kumaon butchered. Only the 5 RAF crew members are remembered by the CWGC while the same CWGC do not recognise the lose of the passengers.

 

Okay found this in WD 172/7108 49 Indian Brigade HQ 1945:

23rd Nov 9 franc tireurs caught and executed no mention of which unit

 

Tom,

No argument on the points raised. Even more damning is the fact that it stopped. Over 150 British and Canadian soldiers were murdered from June 7th to 17th by at least six separate units within the 12th SS, including divisional headquarters. While the fighting continued to be savage until almost the end of August (Falaise), there were no further large scale executions conducted by the 12th SS, to my knowledge. I've never heard an explanation for that but when a consistent behaviour starts and stops it suggests orders from on high.