Killing Prisoners

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by canuck, Feb 22, 2014.

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  1. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Or they realised they weren't winning and the boot might soon be on the other foot.
     
  2. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    "we soon came across the burnt and bombed remains of what looked like a church. It turned out to be a Municipal building. The SS had herded over a hundred and thirty women and children into that building, then they blew it up. The next building to be liberated was being held by men in the Black uniform of the SS. As we closed in on them, the survivors emerged shouting “Nicht Schissen” and kamarad. Nicht Shissen my arse. We shot them without a second thought. From that day on, any German wearing the black SS uniform, would not get the option of surrendering to us. Even the green clad Whermacht would only get one chance to surrender. If they did not accept the first offer they did not get the chance again. The Pioneer boys got the job of clearing that building. Ted Murcar, on his return to Heusden in 1994, for the 50th Anniversary of their liberation, could not face entering that building again. The horror of all those bodies, especially the children, had stayed with him in his nightmares."
    Sgt. George Sands

    By strict definition a war crime but how do you condemn men caught in those circumstances.
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    WW1 but on the same topic, so thought I'd add it here.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28243999



    Samuel West reads Sassoon's uncensored poem Atrocities

    When Siegfried Sassoon published his poem Atrocities in 1919 it was shocking in its description of British soldiers boasting about killing German prisoners.

    But that version was heavily censored by publishers, with euphemisms such as 'How did you do them in?' replacing 'How did you kill them?', and other lines removed altogether.
    Actor and director Samuel West, appearing on the Today programme, reads the uncensored version of the poem, before British academic Jean Moorcroft Wilson explains why its publishers originally modified it.




    [hr]
    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/feb/03/siegfried-sassoon-poem-atrocities
     
  4. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Tex Banwell of 10 Para was a POW at Arnhem ,he escaped and stayed on to work with the resistance ,they ambushed a convoy and captured a wounded SS Officer,Tex wanted to shoot him but the Dutch would not,
    They left him at a cross roads to be found by the Germans.
    The Officer then pointed his finger to the village of Putten,Several men were executed the rest sent off to concentration Camps ,few returned..
    I think in this case Tex would have been right.
    Also (Although I may have missed it) I see no mention of white flag incidents ,There were many of these incidents where units surrendered under a white flag then opened fire on advancing troops .I under stand that allied troops soon learned to ignore them genuine or not .
    My Father was witness to such an incident where German troops were mustering for an attack ,waved a white flag and then proceed anyway.
    I realise this is a battle field thing and the Flag might not be seen by all involved friend or enemy which could leave to drastic misunderstandings.
     
  5. Bob Wilton

    Bob Wilton Junior Member

    During the course of my Bomber Command research I have come across numerous cases of RAF,RAAF,RCAF and RNAF prisoners being murdered when captured.Not only did the military do it but civilians too_One dreadfull case was where a Lancaster was shot down by a German Ak Ak unit,who captured five of the crew and took them to a local POW camp and handed them over to the commandant.The other crew members were less fortunate as they were both captured by a local Gauleiter and a mob of civilians.They took the two airmen to a field and beat them savagely,,then the Gauleiter used a hammer on their heads to finish them off.When the baying crowd heard that there were five more at the prison camp they went to the camp and demanded they other five be handed over,and to the commandants dishonour he handed them over.All five airmen were dealt with in the same way.After the war the Gauleiter and two others went on trial as war criminals,all three were hanged. Have often wondered if our civilians ever did the same to Luftwaffe bomber and fighter crews?
     
  6. NickFenton

    NickFenton Well-Known Member

    Bob,

    I need to look it up but there is quite a horrific figure or number of aircrew who were either POW's or should have been who never survived the war. The German high command actively encouraged the police and army to allow and encourage the mob to take it out on any downed airmen and were told not to intervene.

    Airmen strung up from tees and lamp posts was not unusual.

    Regards,

    Nick
     
  7. Bob Wilton

    Bob Wilton Junior Member

    Nick,

    You are right about the horrific number killed.During one research I found reference to a 19 year old Australian airmen who was captured by some civilians in a village and they took him to the Burgermeisters house and handed him over.He germeistwas taken upstairs and locked in a room.Later the Burgermeister went upstairs with the local town crier.The Burgermeister had a length of thick rubber tube in his hand.He open the door and said "come here my little friend,and then beat the young lad to the floor.He then turned to the town crier and handed him a pistol and said to take him to the wood and shoot him in the back of the head, into a ready prepared grave.He refused,so the Bergermeister had to do it himself. After the war a RAF investigation team went to the village but,the villagers were reluctant to give any information.The young airmans body was recovered and given a proper burial. I sent my details to a German friend that lives in a larger town nearby.He went to the village and asked about the young airman who was murdered.The older generation told him that at least six more airmen were buried in the woods.I have passed this information on. Incidentyly,the town crier was interviewed and he told them what the Burgermeister had done,and got him hanged.
     
  8. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    Just a small note; the indonesian independence struggle was not done immediately with a single well organised army/group, but one that consisted of many different fractions (like you see today in Libya, Syria, Iraq, etc) with one more fanatic and bloodthirsty (radical muslims, communists) than the other (TNI).
    Especially around Surabaya it was very bloody from the start (pemuda slaughtering the dutch civilian pow in/outside the Japanese camps). Obviously the British indians met these ferocious militias and answered thusly.
    But only those who are part of those bloody militias..there is no proof or assumption that the Indians expanded their reprisals to any of the other indonesian freedom fighters.





    NB: my eye noticed something in a wiki entry which puzzles me:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution

    Strength Republican Army:
    183,000
    Pemuda:
    Estimated 60,000
    Former Imperial Japanese Army volunteers:
    3.000
    British Indian Army defectors:600

    Woah: British Indian Army defectors ? Muslims/Pakistani ones ?
    Anyone more info on that ?
    (what happened to them during the following years ? do their families still live in indonesia ? what were their feelings amongst their Hindi colleagues when they landed in Surabaya?)
     
  9. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    some self searching:
    http://www.milligazette.com/news/3662-indian-muslim-soldiers-heroic-role-in-indonesias-liberation
    (but I sense this is a biased webpage ;) )

    "..These 600 soldiers fought shoulder to shoulder with the Indonesian freedom fighters and suffered heavy losses. By the time Indonesia gained its independence in 1945(*not offcially*), the 600-strong band of deserters was reduced to only 75. With their mission coming to an end, many of the surviving soldiers preferred to remain in Indonesia which readily granted them regular ranks in the Indonesian army. Some of them married locally and those who opted to return to their homeland (India/Pakistan) were absorbed by the Indonesian embassies as security officers..."
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I find it interesting that so many posters are so concerned with the morality of killing P.O.W.'s when they tend to forget that

    that any War is immoral as the object is to kill each other - not much different really from the expulsion of morals in the early

    60's as the whole world decided that killings were THE thing as now we have all sorts of methods of killing with stabbings daily -

    with even ten year olds killing each other - abortion on call - assisted suicides - with little protest- BUT to kill an enemy

    after watching your best friend being killed in battle - then morality suddenly re-appears…..the late prime minister Trudeau

    of Canada had it about right when he said that a woman rightly has full control of her body - BUT when pregnant she has another

    body within her of which she has NO right to destroy- I think that is good morality…

    Cheerd
     
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  11. Bob Wilton

    Bob Wilton Junior Member

    What we must all remember is that those countries who signed up to the Geneva Convention should respect the rights of any prisoner who surrenders.If anyone disregards the conditions below they should face justice for their actions.


    Article 13

    Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.
    Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity
    Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
     
  12. TijgerB

    TijgerB Member

    arnhem44 interesting posts you made thou not all the info is correct. If you are interested PM me I can probably help you with what units. Between 28 and 30 Oct '45 49 Brigade lost 254 men. But it is not the scoop of this thread so pm me and maybe we share information :rolleyes:

    Never heard of 600 Inian defectors but probably next year I will start translate a book on a Japanese soldier who landed on Jaa in February '42 and stayed to fight on the Indonesian side.
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Bob

    We had that particular article 13 read out to us very often in between various battles so we were well aware of what it meant

    and as far as I recall we never had anyone kill a POW although there were times…..but I guess - you had to be there

    Cheers
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Bob Wilton

    about being there - one day I recall we were ahead of the infantry and came upon a group of paras intent on surrendering -

    so the Commander told both the gunner and I to round them up and hand them over to the Infantry…I grabbed a tommy gun and slapped
    in a magazine and dismounted - the gunner did likewise - I thought - the biggest para started to laugh and said something to his

    group and they all started to laugh -I looked back to see the gunner - with a fierce look on his face - pointing the gun at the

    paras…..BUT - the gun had NO magazine and the cleaning brush up the spout- so we all had a good laugh - gave them a can of

    cigarettes- and asked them to walk back to the Seaforths…..

    Cheers
     
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  15. Bob Wilton

    Bob Wilton Junior Member

     
  16. Bob Wilton

    Bob Wilton Junior Member

  17. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Bob

    I met three Fallschirmjager Veterans when I was in Cassino in May this year for the 70th Anniversary of the Italian campaign.
    They were staying at our hotel, as were three British Veterans who were on our trip.
    I quite enjoyed their company over a coffee after dinner-they were very polite and spoke perfect English. They said they had a great respect for the men who fought against them at Cassino.

    Lesley
     
  18. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Lesley,

    Take a look at this old Forum thread that I participated in (Post No 4) due to personally knowing a WW2 German Paratrooper.

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/14992-fallschirmjäger-in-lastensegler-dfs-230/

    Regards
    Tom
     
  19. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Thank you Tom for posting the link

    Lesley
     
  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Bob - Tom - Lesley

    We too had the greatest respect for the German para as they fought to the end and so it was very surprising to find a group of
    them willing to surrender - they in turn held the Canadian 1st Division also in high respect as we had met as of from Ortona -
    Liri Valley - Florence and the Gothic Line and beyond to the extent that Kesselring always wanted to know where we were and

    kept his best corps against us such as the 4th Regiment paras - 26th Panzers and the 29th PzGrenadiers ..but..had we been

    playing football….I would say the Canadians won by 2-1…

    Cheers
     
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