Bexley - I'll take you word for all that Pat Scott had to say about that battle as at 86 the eyes are no longer what they were at aged 20 when we were running up and down the Appenines... Smudger - when we were at Orvieto the facade of the Cathedral was covered in scafflolding - with no restoration taking place - according the local wags - they could only afford the scaffolding but not the restoration work - since then of course it has been completed and takes it's place alongside many other magnificient Cathedrals of Europe - the Chapel on the right of the nave was decorated by both Fra Angelicao and Coselli and is still ordered for the Traditional Mass of Pius Vth- and is truly a work of art. The chapel on the left holds the sacred relics of the 12th century miracle of the Host of Bolsena and is ordered for the Novus Ordo Missae of Vatican II. Oldman - as you are aware the 1st Derbyshire 's were the recce regiment for 6th Armoured Div and did an outstanding job all the way from Algiers to Austria.. so he served with a great outfit.... Bexley 84 - I note you live in Windsor - as does/did my old friend Stan Scislowski - if you have minute call the local Legion Hall for his phone # and give him my best wishes - Stan served with the Perth's of 5th Armoured and has written few books and articles including his " Return to Cassino" - which is well worth "googling " - fantastic stuff Cheers
Tom, Yes, sorry. Dreadful copy. I hoped to reattach a "better" copy but the other version breaks the memory capacity. I've been in Windsor for 20 years - but unfortunately it's Windsor, Berkshire. I think you're hosting Queen Elizabeth this week - I saw her two weeks ago coming home from the racing. On Stan Skislowski's Return to Cassino, a very moving narrative. Thank you. Richard
Richard - I should know better than to assume....as we alreaady have a Surrey -Richmond - New Westminster - Nelson - Coldstream -Chetwynd and Kent which is where I live - all here in B.C. HM was at the races in Toronto yesterday- don't think she won anything though - she is off to the UN to-morrow - hopefully to tell them where they are going wrong ! Stan does write well - that one is a classic - his book 'We were not all brave" is worth a read as well - highlighting his front line experiences. Cheers
Just posted some photos of the mountains a little bit further ahead of Lake Trasimene, towards Arezzo. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/italy/20617-arezzo-july-1944-maps-2.html#post300526
I hope this link works - I've posted some recent photo shots from my trips to Italy. Apologies that they're not quite in "order" but hopefully they have some interest. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=276 Richard
Hi there! As i wrote in my presentation, 1 week ago I went with my girl-friend to a wood near Frattavecchia, close to Trasimeno Lake, and in a wood I dug up several objects. The RASC badge is quite interesting... the unique book I know about this battle (La battaglia dimenticata) doesn't mention about this unit, what was their purpose? And what about ammo? I know that in that place a german Tiger tank destroyed 5 NZ or Canadian tanks, could 2 big grenades be Tiger or Sherman ammo? Or what else? P.S. Ciao JayKay, nice to meet you here..... P.P.S. forgive me for my awful English.....
Sofocle The badge of the Royal Army Service Corps(RASC) was the unit which brought the supplies up from the docks etc to the rear of the Corps or Division for onward transmission to the fighting troops - they also drove ambulances and other tasks - the ammo ? - can't help there as I am by no means an expert.. Cheers
Thank you, Tom, I' ve understood, RASC was the equivalent of italian "sussistenza", a logistic corp... I'll post as soon as possible some other stuff I found.
Soficle - you are more than welcome -I should point out that there were NO N.Z. Tanks in that area at that time of June '44 - the main Tanks at that time were the British 6th Armoured Division - the British 9th Armoured Brigade- the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade - and the 6th South African Division who were in the Chiusi area mainly Cheers
As far as I know, tank battle took place about 12 Kilometers N-NE from Chiusi, along the road from Pozzuolo to Gioiella, closer to Castiglione del Lago. Surely you're right, my girl said that tanks involved were Canadian, N.Z. troops being there as reinforcements. Thanks again, Tom, you're really very kind.
Sofocle I doubt that you have the courage to even hint that your girl friend is somehow - possibly - might be a little bit incorrect in her statement that the New Zealanders were there as reinforcements - they had had a severe mauling at Cassino and were in need of a good long rest and so after the Liri valley battles - they were sent over to the Adriatic side for this rest - to reappear at around Riccione in the September - the main participants at the Battes for Castiglione/ Perugia et al were the 78th Division - the 6th Armoured Division and 9th Armoured bde. along with the Canadian 1st Armoured bde. - the 78th Division then went off to Egypt for their long rest - the Tanks went on to Arezzo with British 4th division Cheers
Hi Tom, sure you're right.... She told me that there were many NZ soldiers employed as tanks mechanics.... Don't know if this is true, but in the same wood a friend found a plenty of NZ cap badges, in the fox holes that lie there... strange way to rest after a battle, don't you think?
Sofocles - That is a bit odd to find Kiwi cap badges in that area - and that she claims they were Tank Mechanics - the Kiwi's did have an armoured brigade in their division but I have no recollection of them being involved in that area as they were resting at the time - over on the Adriatic side - coming back into the battle after Rimini at the back end of September, still on the 8th Army sector. Cheers
Bexley84 you will find that Todi is still in the Etruscan age with all the old crafts still in vogue - we were there about three years ago but based on the Bolsena Lake - Orvieto is also a good area to visit especially the Cathedral with the relics of a famous miracle of the 12th Century - there is also a small cemetery on the road - Orvieto - Todi... from the clifftop you can see over the valley to Assisi and other towns on the far side - a beautiful area - and well worth lots of time to see it all ! Cheers Tom, I was able to visit the Orvieto cemetery today, which is just over the river Paglia with 188 named and two unnamed servicemen lying at peace. As always, an extended pause for quiet reflective thoughts. Represented here are men from the Irish Brigade, Northamptonshire Regiment, Warwickshire Yeomanry, East Surreys, Royal West Kents, Lancashire Fusiliers, Somerset Light Infantry, The Buffs, Middlesex Regiment, Argyll and Sutherlands, Lancasters, Recce Corps, Cameronians, Ontario Regiment, Three Rivers Regiment, Royal Artillery, Royal Horse Artillery, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Engineers, and the SA Division. And as you also say, the road from Orvieto to Todi provides a fantastic bird's eye view towards the East. And oh, yes, it was 36C. Richard
Richard Sounds like a good trip your lucky with the weather when the Wife and I where on Lake Garda in July it was 37C thru 44C and in Milan 47C+ Enjoy the rest of the tour.
Richard that temperture sounds about right for August in that area - now picture yourself in a Churchill Tank closed down - with a 12 cylinder engine going berserk moving 40 tons of metal - a six pounder gun banging away in your left ear - and you have an impression of what we started going through a few miles North of there at Jesi to start the Gothic line battles and you will realise why so few of us were classed as "Obese " ! That small cemetery holds a representation of those who took part in those battles round Trasimeno with 78th - 6th Armoured - 6th Sth African armoured -4th divs - 1st Cdn Bde - and 9th Amed Bde - peaceful and beautiful area - and the wine is first class also ! Cheers
Tom, Unimaginable conditions - thank you. If it wasn't for your vivid description of what it was like to be inside a Churchill tank, very few would ever know. I had "walked" part of the battle field area near San Fatucchio last week, and visited Citta Della Pieve, so keenly aware of the fight from the Tiber valley up to the strong line held between Chiusi and Trasimene. At Orvieto, I was particularly struck by the name of Private Henry Joseph Heaven of the Queen's Own West Kent Regiment, age 19. Tomorrow to meet with friends in the Cassino area - and to re-visit some more of my father's friends. Richard
Richard - we were all mostly around 19 at that time - I celebrated my 21st in Rome in '45 in the Piazza of the Pantheon - before you head for Cassino try "googling' for Stan Scislowski's "Return to Cassino" - that will set you up for that visit. Cheers
New here, with observations. My family and I have recently returned from Pucciarelli close to L Trasimeno where we have holidayed with my sister, who lives there. While there I read Iriss Orrigo's account of the period 1943/4 when she and her husband housed allied soldiers and partisans at their house at La Foce (not far from Montepulciano and west of Trasimeno) and had several close encounters with the Germans and Fascisti before the Allies got to them. Reading this often tragic account and knowing many of the settlements mentioned above I have found very evocative as it paints a picture in parallel with the military accounts. I saw what looks like blast damage on the war memorial in San Fatuccio as I jogged round one morning and wondered what 'action'there had been there. BTW in the Castiglione bookshop I saw a book providing an account of the battle of the Trasimene Line, written by an English author (?). I know I should have picked it up now! Perhaps next time. Paul
I went back to the 49th LAA Regimental Diaries for 1944 and did a search on Trasimeno. This threw up the following entry which was just prior to our quitting the line for our R&R in Egypt. On 21 Jun the regt moved to the Tavernelle area, just south of Lake Trasimeno On 25 Jun the CO left with the 78 Div Adv Party, of which he was in command. On the 29th Jun 12 Ju 88s made a harassing attack west of Lake Trasimeno. No guns are the regt were in range. 78 Div was now under orders to move to Egypt for rest, training and re-equipping. The move was ordered for 2 to 5 Jul and on 2 Jul Group A, RHQ and 84 Bty moved off and proceeded via Cita del Pieve - Ficule - Orvieto - Civitella - Viterbo - Vignanello - Civita Castellana and thence by the Rome By-Pass to Tivoli, east of Rome. Other Groups followed and by 2315 hrs all regt groups had arrived
