Lake Trasimene / Lago Trasimeno

Discussion in 'Italy' started by JayKay, Aug 11, 2009.

  1. Paul McCulloch

    Paul McCulloch Junior Member

    If of interest, I have tracked down the book mentioned in my previous post earlier today:

    The Trasimene line
    June-July 1944
    Janet Kinrade Dethick.
    Published 2002 by Uguccione Ranieri di Sorbello Foundation in Perugia .
    Written in English. ISBN 10: 8887270236

    When I scanned it in the shop it appeared to have pictures and plans, as well as descriptive text and diary accounts, so it may well porove a comprehensive study. If you know it, what do you think?

    Paul
     
  2. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Paul,

    Good to hear - and as I'm still in the area, will look out for that book.

    If you would like to read a truly gripping personal account of the days in June 1944, which describe the battle period up to and including the assault on the Albert Line (the strongly held line from Lake Chiusi to Lake Trasimene) by the 78th Division, with specific details regarding the fighting in San Fatucchio, and on Pucciarelli ridge, try to get to see a copy of "Fling Our Banner to the Wind" by John Horsfall.

    Colonel John Horsfall was CO of the 2nd Battalion, London Irish Rifles at the time, and writes a fine narrative : obviously, it helps that he was there. Unfortunately, you may only be able to find it in a library or if you have a spare £100 can get it off Amazon.

    As you know the area, I think that you will find it totally engrossing, and, of course, truly moving. It would allow you to walk from point to point along the line of battle and as you say there are some clear battle scars. For example, the bell tower in San Fatucchio was totally destroyed.

    As mentioned earlier, Brigadier Pat Scott's narrative also sets the scene well - he actually draws upon a lot of Colonel Horsfall's story for the detail.

    Thanks and regards,

    Richard
     
  3. GANDALF

    GANDALF Member

    Hello guys,
    I am happy to join this forum because I live very close to Trasimeno Lake and I am starting an historic research on the 1944 battle.
    Until now I have conducted searches about the operations in the area east of Trasimene Lake (Capture of Perugia) but now is time to expand my work to the whole Umbria region.

    Initially, the operation west of Trasimene Lake, involved the British 78th Div just west of the lake(Pucciarelli, Sanfatucchio) that was later reinforced by the British 4th Div on the right flank (Vaiano). Canadian tanks from the 1st Bde were also deployed. 6th South African Armd Div was in the Chiusi area.
    From the German side (proceding west fron the lake) were deployed 334 ID (Lake-Vaiano), 1st para div (Vaiano-Chiusi Lake), HG Pz Div (Chiusi Lake-Chiusi).

    If you are interested to the Janet Detick's book you can buy it via internet from the Ranieri di Sorbello Foundation website.
     
  4. GANDALF

    GANDALF Member

    Hi Sofocle,

    I do not think that the big grenade could came from a Tiger. In the Trasimene Lake area were not deployed Tiger tanks but only Panthers i n the 334 ID sector.
    Next time could be useful take pictures of the items with a small ruler that can help to calculate the dimensions. Probably are 75mm grenades (Sherman?????)
     
  5. Gilespenn

    Gilespenn Junior Member

    Hi, if you can find the book, "The Arezzo Massacres" by Janet Dethick (2005), she has a chapter on German military activity around Castiglione Fiorentino.
    Hope this helps.
     
  6. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Welcome on board Gandalf

    Look forward to your local research, interested in route 75 if you come accross anything
     
  7. GANDALF

    GANDALF Member

    Hi Oldman,
    sorry but I was a little bit busy during these weeks so I can reply only now.

    I have found something about route 75 (especially on route 75bis). Can you tell me in what are you interested (places, units ecc...)?

    Ciao
     
  8. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Gandalf
    My interest is general in the difficulties faced by the Engineers, mine clearance , crater filling etc, my father fought his way up this road.
    I would br grateful for any information you may be able to provide, I hope to visit the Lake and surounding area at some stage.
     
  9. GANDALF

    GANDALF Member

    All right, I do not have so much documents about the engineers' work but especially in my area (Corciano, near Perugia) there were several mined culverts and, at least, a blown bridge.

    If you came to visit the lake, please let me know. if is possible I will be very happy to meet you
     
  10. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    Hi there! As i wrote in my presentation, 1 week ago I went with my girl-friend to a wood near Frattavecchia, close to Trasimeno Lake, and in a wood I dug up several objects. The RASC badge is quite interesting... the unique book I know about this battle (La battaglia dimenticata) doesn't mention about this unit, what was their purpose? And what about ammo? I know that in that place a german Tiger tank destroyed 5 NZ or Canadian tanks, could 2 big grenades be Tiger or Sherman ammo? Or what else? :unsure:

    P.S. Ciao JayKay, nice to meet you here.....:)
    P.P.S. forgive me for my awful English.....:(
    Hello, I'm the author of La Battaglia Dimenticata. The tanks were Canadian from the 3 Rivers Regiment, attached to 4 British Division which was fighting its way along the rige from Vaiano to Pozzuolo. They were knocked out amongst the conrfields to the north of Frattavecchia just beyond the farmhouse known as Fontepecciano. The German tank which knocked them out was hiding at La Fornace, which has just been turned into housing. The New Zealanders were never on the Trasimene Line as reinforcements. Thney passed through immediately after the battle and were based there in the summer of '45 awaiting repatriation to New Zealand. Here's a quote from my pamphlet The Liberation of Lake Trasimeno:-

    The New Zealanders
    6 Brigade of 2 New Zealand Division passed by Lake Trasimeno during the night of 10 July 1944 on its way to Castiglion Fiorentino in preparation for the attack on Monte Lignano near Arezzo which took place on 13 July. 5 Brigade spent the night of 12 July at Panicale. The entire division was based around the lake from late July until October 1945.
     
  11. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    Soficle -
    you are more than welcome -I should point out that there were NO N.Z. Tanks in that area at that time of June '44 - the main Tanks at that time were the British 6th Armoured Division - the British 9th Armoured Brigade- the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade - and the 6th South African Division who were in the Chiusi area mainly
    Cheers
    Sorry Tom, but 6 South African Armoured Division fought along the hills through Cetona, Sarteano, Chiusi, and Montepulciano to the west of the valley known as the Valdichiana and their tanks did not go along the hill ridge from Villastrada to Pozzuolo. 78 Division in the shape of 36 Brigade took the village of Villastrada on 19/20 June but could not take Vaiano and lost several tanks belonging to the Wilshire Yeomnanry in attempting to do so. They were brewed up along the road between the two villages, which is where they stayed for a long time. When 4 Infantry Division took over the line there on 22/23 June they were supported by tanks from the Canadian Three Rivers Regiiment.
    In the battle for Sanfatucchio and Pucciarelli both tanks of the Warwickshire Yeomanry and the Canadian Ontario Regiment were in action.

    Regards from Umbria
     
  12. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    Sofocle
    I doubt that you have the courage to even hint that your girl friend is somehow - possibly - might be a little bit incorrect in her statement that the New Zealanders were there as reinforcements - they had had a severe mauling at Cassino and were in need of a good long rest and so after the Liri valley battles - they were sent over to the Adriatic side for this rest - to reappear at around Riccione in the September -

    the main participants at the Battes for Castiglione/ Perugia et al were the 78th Division - the 6th Armoured Division and 9th Armoured bde. along with the Canadian 1st Armoured bde. - the 78th Division then went off to Egypt for their long rest - the Tanks went on to Arezzo with British 4th division
    Cheers
    Tom, about the New Zealanders:

    The New Zealanders
    6 Brigade of 2 New Zealand Division passed by Lake Trasimeno during the night of 10 July 1944 on its way to Castiglion Fiorentino in preparation for the attack on Monte Lignano near Arezzo which took place on 13 July. 5 Brigade spent the night of 12 July at Panicale. The entire division was based around the lake from late July until October 1945.


    Taken from 'the Liberation of lake Trasimeno by Janet Kinrade Dethick
     
  13. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    Tom
    Thanks for giving us your valued knowledge and expertise on the advance from Perugia to Arezzo and onwards.
    My DaDs lot supported the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanary on the right flank in late August, and early september they built bridges opening the road to Castiglone which at that time was been held just by 61 Inf Brigade.
    Then they where switched to the Sun Route which they opened from Dicomano to Vicchio so the guards could push on .
    Hello Oldman,

    The Castiglion your dad passed through was Castiglion Fiorentino and not Castiglione del Lago, which is onthe western side of Lake Trasimeno. There's not a lot written about route 75 between Perugia and Arezzo and because very little fighting took place along it until Olmo, on the approach to the city. Just to confuse eveybody, 6 Armoured Division also passed through another little town beyond Arezzo called Castiglion Fibocchi.

    Regards from Umbria
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    If anyone wants to know more about the Wiltshire Yeomanry's part in the battle I can scan the relevent pages of their history & post on here .

    I do like the bit about their water truck capturing Vaiano.
    :)
     
  15. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    Would love to see the pages. Thanks ini anticipation.
     
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    From Royal Wilts by Pitt, pages 196-198, describing the actions involving their support of 78 Div.

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  17. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    Thanks. Interesting reading. I didn't know the Vaiano story. If you go onto our website - orvietowarcemetery.weebly.com and look at the battle history page you will see a photo of where the tanks were knocked out. It shows the road along which they advanced, as did the 8 Argylls.
     
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Superb website, just reading it now.
    Thanks for the heads up on it.
     
  19. footslogger478

    footslogger478 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    You have brought back lots of memories regarding Castel de Lago. It is now such a long time ago that it is becoming harder to recall what happened. After Rome we had quite a slogging match when we got Trasimene, for a while it was fairly easy going, then Kesselring stopped at put up fight. I remember very heavy shelling while we setting up our morters and diving for cover, lots of bit and pieces flying about and I got nicked in the arm I did not realise it at first until I saw blood all over my hand and the sleeve of my tunic was torn. I had the wound dressed and went back to my platoon. Thankgoodness not long after that the div was pulled out of the line, and we were on our way to Egypt for a well earned rest. I think Ron G could give you more info because he has (clever lad) documented so much that happened. I did keep some sort of diary but lost it with my kit when I was wounded again outside Bologna.
     
  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tarquini-
    One of the problems which we veterans have is that of memory playing games now and again as I recall very well the actions of the 6th Sth Africans around Chiusi and the fleeting visit of the Kiwi's and their battle - but what you neglected to mention was that when they returned to that area in 1945 -after the war as you know - they were awaiting transport home which was in short supply at that time as I am sure your author pointed out in her book.

    Plus the fact that our memories are sometimes at odds with endless research of all of the facts which are now available to the younger generations and so I feel sure that you can forgive our little lapses as we were not always fully aware of the so called BIG picture.

    Do I understand that you live in that area..? if so it is most beautiful as I spent some time there just a few years ago when the scaffolding still surrounded the facade of the Cathedral at Orvieto...
    Cheers
     

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