Hi Kiwiazza and all, ...re. 189 Squadron Lancaster I NX567 CA-Q A few months late, sorry! Here are extracts from a letter sent to me from Bill Rust regarding turning points etc. ''.......Having had a chance to do some checks and calculate the route, though only on small scale map. I've found the point where they came down [marked with a red arrow head on the enclosed map] was near to being on course to the target. The last three turning points before the target are reported as 48.50 N.-09.20E.. 49.20 N.-10.10 E. and 49.20 N.-11.10 E. After the last of these is given the word 'TARGET' I can only guess this was as the target would be marked and its location obvious, needing no course to be given.'' He then continues...... ''I've calculated in the best way i can, due to the scale of one of my maps being very large and the other very small, the turning points. As the latitude and longitude grid on my map is in 2 degree divisions, there is room for error,but even so wont be far out. The last three turning points given are 48.20N.-05.00E.:49.50N.-09.20E., and 49.20N.-10.10E.. Having passed 10.10E. they remained at 49.20N. to reach 11.10E., the last turning point to the target. Its my guees the turn would have been near to 90 degrees, so due north from there last heading. As you can see, allowing for my turning point marks being somewhere near to correct, had they flown on their heading for only a minute or two more they have reached the next point [my measurements put Leuzebronn, roughly at 49.00N.-10.00E. My estimate of the map reference would have put their track approximately on a line between the blue crosses. That they appear to have come down on one side of the line of flight could be because there is no certainty that a damaged aircraft would remain flying straight ahead as the damage couls make its path downward anything but straight. Unfortunately i have only the outward route but as its unlikely the return route would be very close to the outward one it appears theres little doubt they were on the way to the target not coming from it.
greets gents it has been far too long, I really need to bookmark this thread as some additional info has come my way, Becker may not have claimed all the 9 a/c that I had originally posted nor even got 7 of the RAF bombers he claims. thanks to von poop for getting me back here to observe. let me soak this whole thread into my wee brain for several days and hopeful I can add additions to this most interesting thread. thanks to all for maps and info so far. Kiwiazza next spring 08 you will have the Becker report covered at length Martin Beckers kill the March eve of 45.
Hi all, Thanks Boris for bringing this thread to my attention and that it has come back to life again. Erich, looking forward to your comments in a few days time. cheers kiwiazza.
Your welcome mate, you started it! and cheers again Erich for so much info, here is a little more i found re. My Edward Atterbys NX567 CA-Q that night .... Lancaster NX567 Information Type Lancaster Serial Number NX567 Squadron 189 X1D CA Q Operation Lutzkendorf Date 1 14th March 1945 Date 2 15th March 1945 Further Information "Serial Range NX548 - NX794 This aircraft was one of 200 Lancasters ordered from austin Motors (Longbridge) Mar43 and delivered as 50 Mk.1s and 150 Mk.V11s from Feb45 to Nov45 with Merlin 24 engines. NX567 was delivered to No.189 Sqdn 10Mar45 NX567 was lost on its first operation with a total of 6 recorded hours. 189 Sqdn had re-formed at Bardney 15Oct44, moving to Fulbeck 2Nov44. Prior to this, its only previous Service had been in the First World War. Airborne 1709 14Mar45 from Fulbeck to bomb the Wintershall synthetic oil plant. Cause of loss and crash-site not established. Those killed are buried in Durnbach War Cemetery . F/O G.H.Austin KIA Sgt J.McBeth Inj Repatriated 11May45. F/S T.G.Storey Inj F/S J.W.Purdy Inj F/S C.T.Hall KIA F/S E.Atterby KIA F/S W.R.Clydesdale Inj F/S W.R.Clydesdale, F/S J.W.Purdy, F/S T.G.Storey and Sgt J.McBeth were confined in Hospital due injuries until Liberation. No PoW No. " Best Regards Guys, Boris.
If there's any way of contacting the inhabitants , there always seems to be a small boy who remembered things like this . If there was anyone still there at the time ... Linden
If there's any way of contacting the inhabitants , there always seems to be a small boy who remembered things like this . If there was anyone still there at the time ... Linden Linden,very good point, a couple of years ago i contacted the most local newspaper i could find that was in Rothburg, they published a request for any memorys that readers may have had of the night, but i got no responce.... if i dont get to go out there next year i will have to find a more 'local' newspaper now that i have more information.
Hi, I dont think it would be a good idea for me to contact the local people. I havent given the full details of how my relative died, however I will say that it may have involved some members of the local populace. He survived the crash but died several days later. I think there will be some bad memories for those involved and I dont want those to resurface for the local people their. Out of respect for them and all parties involved. Some things are best left to rest. cheers Aaron.
Hi, again all! Been in contact with Karl Johanssen and can add a pic of him from 1992, left to right... Unknown, Karl Johanssen, Martin Becker, Lenard Millar and George Mead. Karl and Martin are pictured with three lads from a Lancaster crew that they shot down in April 1944. BORIS.
Karl-J seems to be fit. Martin passed away from a long long illness even told me through letter by Karl-J.
received my friend and I am looking for it. I have a copy of Karl personal report made in German besides 3 other accounts-reports in German, but trying to find them all. this will be covered of course in T. Boitens massive book due out next spring E `
Thanks Erich, your efforts are much appreciated. Looking forward to seeing you find. regards kiwiazza.
Hello again all, I have dredged this post up from the past as with our countries lockdown due the pandemic I have some time to continue my research. Albeit a few years on. This really was an interesting thread. I am still wanting to ascertain if I can establish who shot down my relatives Lancaster. First of all some facts I have established. The route the bomber stream took took to and from the target. As per above posts the route to the target was via Stuttgart and Nuremberg ( thanks Boris). This is confirmed from the ORB of 227 Squadron as the squadron attacked the target on a North Easterly heading ie they attached the target from the South West. Then once they bombed the target at approx 2200hrs they took a reciprocal course out of the target area. Karl Johanssen (radio operator of Luftwaffe pilots Martin Becker’s crew) states this in his Description of there actions that night. He states the bombers had a heading of 205 degrees leaving the target. They also took this heading and flew along with the bomber stream. Now in relation to my relatives Lancaster been shot down. I have two questions. First of all. With regards to Martin Becker’s claims. There is a big discrepency between the location of his last three kills. According to website Luftwaffe.cz Aces of the Luftwaffe, Becker’s 55th kill occurred NE of Schwabisch Hall and his 56th kill occured near Unterschlauerbach. Yet according to another website the location of his 55th and 56th kills are described as (55th) 8km SW from Heidelheim and the 56th as 3kms west of Goppingen. Now when you compare the different location to eachother the 55th kill is 260kms apart and the 56th kill 154kms apart. Obviously Martin Becker cannot be in two places at one hundred of kms apart. So, my question is, which location description of Martin Becker’s 55th and 56th kills are correct? My next question is in regards to the Luftwaffe pilot Gerard Friedrich , he made 3 claims of Lancasters shot down that night as well. There is no information that I can find of the location of those claims, only the times. If anyone can give the location of Gerard Friedrichs claims that would be most helpful. I have got Karl Johanssen description of the attacks they made that night. Thanks all for anyone who may be able to assist. Regards kiwiazza, stay safe everyone during this pandemic.
Welcome back Just in case you don´t already know Here you´ll find some additional information about that mission Lancaster NG399 EM-O 207 squadron
hi Ltdan thanks for that reference, a very interesting thread and obviously quite a bit of detective work involved there. Your obviously an expert when it comes to try and piece together events from all those years ago. Given the best source of reference to try to figure where a night fighter attacked a Lancaster. My relative was buried at Illesheim. I have info from the RAF that the crash site of RA546 was at Schuusbach. A tiny village approx 30kms East from Illesheim. According to the air ministry the plane crashed approx 2330hrs. Given your knowledge and research, would you say that the best guess is that Martin Becker attacked my relatives Lancaster. Either his 55th and 56th claim? Thanks kiwiazza.
Aron, if you need help of any locals around Schussbach let me know, Typically there are local amateur historians knowing pretty much about war time matters. German or English. Especially if you want to visit the site in due course. Stefan. Stefan.
