Lancaster Crews

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Slipdigit, Dec 12, 2007.

  1. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I was reading this thread from Garron and saw Mr. Goldstein's reply.

    I had not realized that the Lancaster was crewed by only one flight-certified person

    1. Was there a reasoning for this other than economics?
    2. Was there a copilot's seat and controls in the plane?
    3. Surely other crew members could "steer" the plane if the pilot were incapacitated. Was there generally one specific crew member that did this job?
    4. Do you know of any non-flight rated crew members landing a Lancaster because of an injured pilot?
    5. Were other British multi-engined aircraft similarly crewed?
     
  2. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi Jeff

    I know you & I have discussed the use of titles before but please get used to calling me Ron instead of Mr.Goldstein, every one else seems to manage :)

    Having got that out of the way I hasten to let you know that, despite knowing where a Lancaster crew were positioned , I am in no way even half an expert on RAF matters and earnestly suggest you ask your questions directly to the likes of the excellent Peter Clare.
    My only experience in researching Lancasters was when I spent some 18 months trying to find out how a much loved brother was killed in the closing stages of the war:
    BBC - WW2 People's War - The night my father was killed in action

    Best regards

    Ron
     
  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Ron, we have and I apologize. Old, childhood-taught habits and values die hard, especially since I expect the same behavior of my children (do as I do, not just as I say). As y'all know, I am a Southerner and it is expected practice here.

    Maybe Peter Claire will see this and give me some answers to my questions.

    Thanks again.
     
    James S likes this.
  4. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    my gosh Ron I did not know about your fallen brother serving with a Lanc unit and of all dates the 16/17 March 1945 a date that I and a good New Zealand friend have worked on with data for over 6 years. And in fact he did an article in Flypast June 2005 of one such incident between a Lanc crew and a NJG 6 pilot flying a Bf 110G-4..........there is still so much confusion even if it was Shusters claim or not, some of the German records just do not make a whole lot of sense still and we have accessed many.

    Ron may I ask to make a copy of the story written for my data records ??

    Schuster was flying a Ju 88G-6 by the way....secondary note: Ofw Heinrich Schmidt from 2./NJG 6 flying a Ju 88G-6 claimed 2 Lancasters north of the city........... well more research then

    Erich ~
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ron may I ask to make a copy of the story written for my data records ??
    Erich ~

    Erich

    The story itself was posted by my nephew, Mike Goldstein CBE but I am sure that I can speak on his behalf and say there would be no objection to using it for research purposes.

    Ron
     
  6. Erich

    Erich Senior Member

    Ron many thanks, hopeful in the near future Rod and I can come up with some Luftwaffe nf conclusions on this raid

    E ~
     
  7. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    I posted Jeff's Lancaster question on the rafcommands website, the next few posts are the replies I received.

    This from RAF Bomber Command in the Second World War by Dennis Richards

    'To meet the demand for pilots their courses in the OTU's had been shortened as noted, but this merely resulted in a good supply of inadequately trained pilots. It was MacNeece Foster at No. 6 (later 91) Group who suggested and campaigned for the solution: drop the requirement for a second pilot, train the first one properly, and give some other member of the crew enough training to fly the aircraft home in an emergency. Also, as Harris insisted if Foster's plan (which he opposed) was to be adopted, install an automatic pilot ("George") in every bomber.
    The 'single pilot' policy, the foremost feature of what became called the 'New Deal' in training, came into force in March 1942. As part of the same package, other important changes were made in crewing. The observer had been responsible both for navigation and, normally, for aiming the bombs. During the bombing run-up it was difficult for him to concentrate on navigation, with the result that he often became uncertain of the correct course for home. Known henceforth as the navigator, he was relieved of his bomb aiming duty, which went to a new member of the crew, the air bomber or bomb aimer - who could also act in an emergency as front gunner. It was he in the medium bombers, and another new member of the crew soon afterwards introduced for the heavy bombers, the flight engineer, who now had to act as pilot's mate and learn to handle the aircraft in an emergency. At the same time the requirement for two wireless operators/air gunners in each medium or heavy bomber was abandoned in favour of having one wireless operator/air gunner and one 'straight' air gunner.

    I presume that Lancs were the same as Hali's and had a co pilot seat. Although the above says F/E's assisted the pilot I have many examples where the Air Bomber took this role. Again only not talking specifically of Lancs there are many examples of none pilots flying and landing the aircraft, the case of Sgt. Stuart Nimmo Sloan being an example. He was an air bomber with 431 Sqn. After the pilot had baled out, he flew the aircraft back to the UK and successfully landed it. A well deserved CGM resulted

    Posted by Eddie Fell rafcommands.com
     
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  8. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    I'm hardly an expert on Lancs, but I do recall a conversation with my now deceased grandfather (who served as a Bomb Aimer in 460 Sqdn during mid-1944) that he had rudimentary training to fly, but not land, a Lanc

    Posted by AdrianR8 rafcommands.com
     
  9. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    know the Lanc had a fold down seat, next to the pilot, for the Flight Engineer to sit in when he was assisting the pilot with the throttles on takeoff.

    The Lancaster pilots I have interviewed have told me that "time permitting, either the Flight Engineer or the Bomb Aimer were taught to fly the aircraft straight and level". One skipper went so far as to say that he would only allow this training while over the UK

    Posted by alieneyes (Dave) rafcommands.com
     
  10. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    Yes Dave's right. I know one flight engineer from 463 squadron who I spent a couple of days with this summer, he told me that his pilot often allowed him to fly the Lanc on the way back from a sortie but not, of course, land it. Most of these missions lasted several hours and pilots needed "relief" in the broadest sense! Some flight engineers were also trained pilots: in the later stages of the war there was a glut of pilots from those trained in this country, Canada/America, Africa and Australia, so many diverted to be re-trained as f/es.
    Regards
    Max Williams rafcommands.com
     
  11. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Thanks very much for the information, Peter, I appreciate your diligence.

    After the pilot had baled out, he flew the aircraft back to the UK and successfully landed it. A well deserved CGM resulted

    Do you suppose the pilot of this aircraft faced retribution for his action during or after the war (assuming he jumped over enemy-controlled areas)?

    The CGM seems to be well earned.
     
  12. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Same for American B-17s and Liberators....Flight Emngineers taught and expected to land plane when pilot (s) were incapacitated....The US Army Air-Force, I believe, introduced this policy pre-war, in responce to British Bombers standards for operational proceedures....The Yanks had to have a template for planning their operations, and they were said to have used much info provided by their British allies, and ignored a lot of it too....Daylight Bombing was considered 'suicide' by the RAF, but the USAAF went ahead with theirplans anyway and sufered accordingly...The RAF suffered too, so it's purely academic as to which system was superior. They botrh had strengths and weaknesses, and this dual policy allowed a 'day & night ' policy of continuos 'round-the-clock' bombing to be implemented after Casablanca conference....
     
  13. phil the aussie

    phil the aussie Junior Member

    Interesting reading, people. Some trivia follows. Lancasters only had one piece of armour plating, which was installed in the head rest of the pilot's seat, who although was the skipper, wasn't necessarily the aircraft commander. That was usually a commissioned officer ?? [ my dad was a w/oppy with the rank of Flying officer ]The pilot may only be a Sergeant Pilot, or Pilot officer.
     
  14. phil the aussie

    phil the aussie Junior Member

    Different subject. Questions were being asked about 'Littlestone' airfield. The Kent History Forum [ Kent History Forum - Index ] lists littlestone as a pre=war civil aifield. it gives the co-ordinates of/as N51'01" E00'59"


    sorry guys, just realised I posted this in the wrong box. check www.kenthistoryforum.org,uk
     
  15. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I took a look in Theo Boiten's "NJG War Diaries Vol 2 - April 1944- March 1945" for the night of 16/17 Match 45 , the loss of RF154 he puts down to Major Herbert Lutje ( Stab. NJG6) 30km SSW of Nurnberg at 21.33.

    Not all claims are firmlyidentified other possibles for this claimare listed as 12 Sq lanc PD275 and 576 Sq aircraft ME317.

    Schuster's claim is (21.33) is now thought ( most probably) to have been a 100 Sq Lancaster ND644.

    A sad story so typical of many who disappeared in to the night skies.
     
  16. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Interesting reading, people. Some trivia follows. Lancasters only had one piece of armour plating, which was installed in the head rest of the pilot's seat, who although was the skipper, wasn't necessarily the aircraft commander. That was usually a commissioned officer ?? [ my dad was a w/oppy with the rank of Flying officer ]The pilot may only be a Sergeant Pilot, or Pilot officer.


    On RAF aircraft, the skipper of the aircraft was the left hand seat man,that is the pilot, irrespective of rank.Luftwaffe aircraft had a different command structure, the senior in rank was the captain.

    There were cases when the Station Commander flew with a squadron and even in this case the left hand man was the boss.Station commanders could always find a reason to fly operationally and Harris generally took a dim view of this for the loss of a station commander was thought to be more damaging than the loss of an aircrew member lower down in the organisation.If you look at the RAF casualties, you will find a number who were lost for no other reason than wishing to get involved in real operations.

    One genuine case comes to mind when the RAF were planning the Peenemunde raid and the intention was to use the "Master Bomber" (air operation manager for the want of better words) for the first time.One of the candidates for the role was John Searby,the No 83 Squadron commander and for an assessment of his performance, a senior air officer flew with Searby on the raid to Turin prior to the raid on Peenemuinde.Despite the presence of a senior air officer, Serby was the skipper of the aircraft.From this raid, Searby was selected as the Master Bomber for this important raid on Peenemunde.

    Regarding the ability of the crew to fly the aircraft.The Flight Engineer by his role and responsibilities was the best man in many cases to take over the role.Navigators?Observers were another source of this skill.Some had been "thrown off" pilot courses and remustered to Navigators or Observers but possessed the necessary skills to fly and land an aircraft in an emergency.

    The Flight Engineers seat was a flap seat which impeded the passage down to and from the escape hatch under the Bomb Aimer's position so in an emergency it was a struggle to get up from the Bomb Aimer's station to the left hand seat especially if the Flight Engineer was injuried in a downed seat.The Navigator's passage to the left hand seat was a much easy task that that of the bomb aimer but having said that the Flight Engineer was the man to take charge of the "pole" (control stick) in an emergency from the left hand seat.

    One important aspect of the Flight Engineers duties was that on take off the pilot would have control of the throttles as normal but the pilot's right hand would be held firmly in place by the left hand of the Flight Engineer to ensure that the aircraft was not under throttled on take off fail on take off.It was usual to push the throttles to maximum on take off, a boost postion with the operational step known as pushing the throttles "through the gate".Considering that a Lancaster could be at its maximum all up weight with max bomb load and max fuel,this step in the operation of take off was critical for the safety of the crew and their aircraft

    Prior to the introduction of the four engined heavies, the RAF had a command system of including a Co Pilot in the crew.This was expensive in terms of the loss of extensively trained and skilled pilot manpower.So when the four engined heavies were introduced, there was an obvious increase in pilot workload and the opportunity was taken to restructure the crew and introduce the Flight Engineer who would take the responsibility for the supervision of engine performance and fuel distributrion from fuel tank to engine.It would be his responsibility to ensure that petrol had been loaded as appropriate to the air operations to take place.The longest trip the RAF had to make was to Konigsberg in East Prussia which had a flight duration of about 12 hours and was made to aid the Russians to take the festung, so called by Nazi propaganda.

    As far as I am aware, Lancasters were not equipped with dual controls, ie another control stick for the Flight Engineer.However some Lancaster Mark 1V and Mark Vs, later to be renamed Lincoln Mark 1 and Mark 11 entered service, post war with dual contols.

    The pilot armour plating was about 3/8 inch thickness and extended from the head down to the seat level, that is the pilots back and head was protected and for some unknown reason had a 8 inch diameter(approximately) bright yellow circle painted on the back.
     
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  17. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    My great uncle was a flight engineer on Lancs for his second tour, and has mentioned to me that he also had a co-pilot role should he be needed. I have no idea how much flight training he had...I'll have to ask him next time I see him.
     
  18. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    I recall Bill Reid saying in TWAW although he had given his Flt/Eng. some instruction it would seem to have been "unofficial" and when he was wpounded he knew that unless he could keep going no one was getting home , flying level for a few minures if he had to (pee) was one thing flying at night , holding course to base , and getting her down in one piece was quite another, turning manouvering in the dark getting her back on an even keel - far from an easy job to the inexperienced.

    I think the armour plate says it all , one pilot and if he goes they had better be able to get out quickly.
     
  19. Wimpy

    Wimpy Member

    The office

    [​IMG]

    I am sure that most crew members would have managed to "have a go" in the main seat but as said there is a huge difference from flying straight and level and bringing a probably damaged aircraft back safe.

    Was there a dickie seat? You would need some leverage for the pedals and some where to park your bum!

    BTW what a great name Stuart Nemmo Sloan that deserves a medal on it's own!!
     
  20. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    That is a great photo "Whimpy"

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    That yellow dot and the only armour plate in the aircraft , protecting the only person trained to fly it.

    I lifted these from "Lancaster at War" Vol 1. ( Garnett & Goulding).

    YouTube - Cockpit Avro Lancaster

    A view around the "office" - that big yellow dot and single seat.

    YouTube - Lancaster NX 611 - Just Jane

    Could not resist this.
    Again it would seem to be one lanc . one pilot , you can't help but think that it was somehow in the thinking that if the pilot had bought it , the plane was almost certainly lost as well .....save on pilot training - send one per aircraft and keep it as a "single seat" aircraft.
     

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