Liberation of Venray

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Rich Payne, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Overloon and Venraij stay with me all of my days. So much happened there. Such ferocious fighting. So many mines that had to be lifted under fire.....Misery!

    The loss of good friends..... And the place were in an instance my life would be changed for ever.....On my living room wall, I have a blue and white memorial plate of those places were we fought so many long years ago. .....
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Peter-Disc in the post today. I hope you find it of use/interest.
     
  3. Peterb41

    Peterb41 Junior Member

    Brilliant Andy, I'm sure it's going to be cracking !
     
  4. BottyWWFC

    BottyWWFC Member

    Peter - What amazing discoveries and brilliant work by Drew. I love seeing someone hit the jackpot :).

    Sapper - I must agree with your assessment of how much of the footage is staged. The big giveaway for me is where the troops are leopard-crawling past a position that the cameraman is very obviously exposed to. Every action seems very half-hearted and lacking in urgency as well....such as the so-called "storming" of the house. I am sure in a real-time situation, much more urgency and awareness would have been on display.

    I cannot begin to imagine how painful this snapshot of such a pivotal moment in your life must be for you.
     
  5. bob90

    bob90 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Sapper is correct it was at that time known as the Molen beek. Oct 44 forming up at Overloon we made our way down the wooded side towards Venraij to the Molen beek We being the Churchill Tank support, namely No7 Troop 2 sqd 4GG 6th Gds tank brges supporting 3rd Brt inf div who crossed the molen beek but we could not . Myself as turrer gunner/op spent the best part of day stationed highest point Pepperpottingbase base of hedgerows cover shooting the Infantry forward, their casualties were horrendous. mainly shue personel mines. One days work done, back to harbour area for nightfall. bob90
     
  6. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    The severity of the conditions .The mines.. made the taking of Overloon and Venraij worthy of a battle medal of its own.....The RE were stretched to breaking point in the tasks demanded of us. Mines were sown like the legend of the Dragons teeth, when planted they increased a thousand fold. Getting across the beek was misery, we eventually put a Trestle bridge across as the mud took care of tanks, that promptly bogged down. We also lost a group at Overloon when the Regal mines they had lifted "everywhere" blew up.

    And it took care of me on the road between Overloon and Venraij
     
  7. missy

    missy Member

    I can't believe i haven't come across this thread before, i got quite emotional reading all the posts, especially yours Sapper. As some of you may be aware, my great uncle Ernie Cadman 2 KSLI, was killed at Overloon and on that day they were crossing the molenbeek, so presumably he was killed whilst trying to cross.

    Louise
     
  8. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Overloon and Venraij, for me, were the major battles that we took part in Missy. After taking those two places, we got ourselves "harboured" in a Dutch German SS training camp north of Venraij. It was a place where the SS trained Dutch youngsters to join the SS.
    The buildings (all wooden) were badly shelled, but we could find enough to get a little cover. Digging in to our usual fox holes was not on. Every time we dug a hole, it filled with water and then froze.... The whole area was under shell and mortar fire.

    One night my mate noticed a loose plank on the floor, lifted it up and discovered a hoard of Sherry bottles, left behind by the enemy, after a quick test. We used to have a little night cap every night..

    Surrounding us were the massed British artillery. It was there that we witnessed an unusual event. The guns in use were the British 25 pounders. hey lined them all up and fired the whole line in one go .... Simultaneously...The only time I had seen that done,
    There were mines everywhere. Both Schu. S. Regal. and antitank.

    It was a horror of a place, and one that got me for good. laying on the road between Overloon and Venraij with a fractured spine, and many other serious injuries....All my hopes of playing cricket for Hampshire (If I was good enough) Gone out the window...About one or two in the morning, laying on the road unable to move, face up completely aware. It started to snow. I recall after all these years, the gentle feel of the snow flakes settling on my face...

    The rest of my life was to be governed by those injuries. I retired in the seventies after the war caught up with me. Big Grin....Overloon has what I think is probably the best kept and cared for military cemeteries anywhere....
     
  9. bob90

    bob90 WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi All. Difficult to see where I could come in after the mish/mash of the film, however, the Churchill supporting Tanks of 4GG could not cross the Beek. The Coldstreams moved around to find a blown bridge entry into Venraij helped by R.E.s of3rd Div pushed on calling for Brigade back up shortly followed 2sqn 4th Grenadiers found Infantry support & Artillery unavailable. What did we find in the centre, ? Complete inactivity the enemy evacuated the day before, left nothing useful. bob90
     
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  10. jws

    jws Junior Member

    This is a really interesting topic about the battles in and around Overloon. Wenn wright already the first day of the attack (12'th october 1944) lots of cassualties and tanks shutdown (mainly by landmines). I found written accounts that flailtanks made lanes but how about the mines in the wooden area of Overloon? How many of the churchill's of the 6ht guards have been destroyed or put out of action? Wenn wright the days before the attack started it was rain and wet so this would not help during the advance and during the crossing of the Loobeek it was even worse?

    Gr.Jan Willem
     
  11. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

    I am trying to find details of the death of Guardsman Robert SILMAN of 4th Bn Coldstream Guards . He died on 14th October and was the crew of a Churchill tank. His unit was involved in the fighting around the Molenbeek that day. He is buried in Overloon War Cemetery.

    Looking at the CWGC site there were seven from his Battalion who died that day - it looks like two groups of three and a seventh (Hillman) who died of wounds.

    The War diaries at Kew for the Battalion and Brigade have few details and the best source I have found is Monty's Iron Sides by Patrick Delaforce.

    Any help on him or the loss of tanks that day much appreciated.

    Tony
     
  12. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

    After posting this I looked through the IWM recorded interviews and found one by Bob Dare who was in the same tank crew and gives a full account of the incident when Bob Silman was killed. It also seems that their tank, which was blown up on a mine, is preserved in Overloon Museum. So many of my questions have been answered but I would still be interested in any further details of the day's events.

    Dare gives the date as 12th Oct whereas the CWGC gives the date of death as 14th October. I think the latter is more likely as the CWGC location for the original graves of the crew, before it was 'concentrated in Overloon CWGC cemetery, puts it south east of Overloon and on the way to Venray.
     
  13. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    The battlefield of Overloon is very poignant as some of the battlefield has been preserved around the site of the museum and several of the dead buried in the Overloon CWC are from the armoured vehicle casualties exhibited in the museum.

    The first time I visited Overloon I was struck by the memorial to the East Yorkshire Regiment which had an inscription something like "Overlord to Overloon." I could not find it when I visited in 2014. It seems to have been moved in the redevelopment of the museum. There is so much attention focused on 6th June `1944 that it is easy to forget that D Day was just one of many assaults.

    There is one man buried in Overloon CWC whose story has a cinematic parallel. Major Arthur George Ellis of the Royal Norfolk Regiment was killed in the attack on 12 October. He had originally served in one of the battalions of the Norfolk Regiment in 59th Division broken up after Normandy, and he had been been mentioned in dispatches for rescuing casualties under fire. IIRC he was serving as a company commander in the Suffolk Regiment. The Eastern Daily Press carried an obituary describing him as one of the most promising teachers in Norfolk. Isn't this the back story of the Tom Hanks character in Saving Private Ryan?

    The war museum at Overloon is one of the best anywhere. In addition to the unusual collection of vehicles from the battle it has a very extensive collections of AFVs, rivaling Duxford and Munsterlager
     
  14. chrisgrove

    chrisgrove Senior Member

    Not only AFVs. In my opinion it has the best collection of American softskins in Europe.

    Chris
     

  15. Hello Drew, I am searching for Trooper E. Bentley of this 2nd FFY. Would you perhaps have the list of the "A" and or "C" squadron too?
     
  16. Esmoreit

    Esmoreit New Member

    Hi Sheldrake, I am looking for more information on Major Arthur George Ellis. He was killed by a sniper on 12th of October. Do you happen to have a photograph of him....
     
  17. Lizdutch

    Lizdutch Member

    Hallo Marco, weet jij toevallig of er een Brits hospitaal in Venray was in maart 1945? Ik zou graag willen weten of ze in tenten zaten of in gebouwen en zo ja, welke. De archivaris van de gemeente Venray kon mij iig niets vertellen. Groetjes Liz
     
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  18. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Lizdutch...there definitely were British Hospitals in Venray. This is clearly stated in the official history of the British Medical Services in WW 2. Here are my suggestions:
    British General Hospitals at Venray
     
  19. AlanNL

    AlanNL New Member

    Hello, i am
    New to the forum but i research Battle at Overloon specifically and was stuck on the subject of Royal Engineers in Overloon. I have so far been unable to properly seperate actions of Royal Engineers of the 3rd infantry division and the Royal Engineers of the 79th armoured division including AVRE vehicles. The lack of photographs does not help. I have found a mention of AVRE crew of the 617th assault engineer squadron laying a bridge over the Loobeek / Molenbeek but that is about it. Is anyone able to help? Another interesting subject is which units were involved in the crossing. It is known that for example Royal Norfolk Regiment was involved. I have nog been able to find any mention of 2/KSLI being involved until recently when i heard a 2/KSLI veteran John Lincoln talk about his experiences crossing the beek. I am always looking for photo’s and video’s of the battle including the war diaries of the 4/KSLI, 3rd infantry units (mostly 185th brigade) and 79th armoured (Westminster Dragoons and Royal Engineers)
     
    alberk likes this.
  20. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the forum, AlanNL
     

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