Long March POW Casualty 1945: John Antony Ronald Coulthard, Stalag XXA, Thorn

Hi Jon and Barbara,

I have just sent a PM with the same information. The Retzow that the airmen are buried in is a different hamlet to the one 3 of Antony's companions were buried in in March 45. They are 50k apart, the one with the the airman's graves is to the south. Amazingly both are tiny and Google earth has to be put on high magnification for their names to come up.

Back to the drawing board, but the process of grave registration by the CWGC must be the same.

Steve

 

Yesterday, Dr Seumas Spark, an authority on this subject introduced me to the existence of the Unit diaries of the British Army Graves Services, which are available to read at the National Archives.
Since the CGWC was (and still is) very cautious in recording a person's name to a body, without being 100% sure it was them, this leaves the Unit Diaries written by the people "on the ground" as the best avenue for relatives.
I think it is a great pity no-one from the authorities even suggested we look at the unit diaries at the National Archives.

 

BarbaraWT,

Thank you for a very useful tip. I searched for "graves" at TNA limited to 1939 to 1950 and in the many search returns are 25 different WO series with the word in the title of the file, including some series already mentioned in this thread. ( I am looking for about 100 burials at sea off Manila in August and September 1944. I know that a list existed in April 1945 from statements I have transcribed and posted to the Hofuku Maru thread on this site but I have the feeling that the document will elude me.)

The CWGC have an archive that can be visited but there are pre-conditions, which can be viewed in a pdf document. As a matter of interest, the United Nations War Crimes Archive also impose pre-conditions, also viewable in a pdf. Since the UN started the whole War Crimes Trial business it is hard to understand why they want to keep their archive restricted, unless they are still smarting from the Kurt Waldheim affair.

I note that there are two files in WO235 which should contain the trial proceedings of Willy Mackensen: WO235/58 and WO235/622. Have you seen these ?

According to the title of file WO309/58 Willy Mackensen may have used the alias "Karl Schubert."

You may not be aware of the following piece of information which appears to have been obtained from a "camp history". The bibliography of the book mentioned below refers to files WO208/3242 and files WO208/3269-95 in general terms as being the sources of histories written shortly after the war but there are no more specific footnotes to the text that I have.

According to the book "MI9: Escape and Evasion 1939-1945" by M.R.D. Foot ( d.2012) and J.M. Langley, first published 1979, ( my copy is the Book Club Associates edition, also 1979 ) at page 247 ( with the usual apologies and acknowledgements):

" There was one fort at the vast Stalag XX at Thorn, Fort XVII, from which escape seemed much more easy than from anywhere else in the camp: a visit to that beautiful city showed why. On the left, unbeautiful bank of the Vistula, Fort XVII is slap opposite the railway station, a point nobody had bothered to mention in the camp history. It was from here that Paddon, Hawtin and several others got away, but one needed luck as well as judgement; the sentries were trigger happy, and the prisoners' count of those shot arbitrarily by them rose as high as twenty-two. Still, there were thirty-one former inmates of Thorn back in the United Kingdom before the end of the war. They did not include Private J. Gilliland, a Cameron Highlander who escaped eight or nine times and was 'finally shot by the Germans' whose patience had run out, according to Lance-Corporal A. Coulthard of field security, who also made nine unsuccessful escapes, but survived to say so."

 

Barbara,

My last post on 30th January 2012 dealt with lists and the work of "Cas.PW" so if you are looking for a similar sort of search to your own you should start there.

Good Hunting, John

 

Hi John
Regarding your other questions, I might ask Steve Foster to make a comment because he is the star researcher between us. "WO235/58 and WO235/622" - get back to you.
Thanks
Barbara

 

Barbara,

My last post on 30th January 2012 dealt with lists and the work of "Cas.PW" so if you are looking for a similar sort of search to your own you should start there.

Good Hunting, John
John,

I will be visiting the NAs on 19 April to conduct research into the Graves registration Units on behalf of Barbara. I have a list of 30 odd files to read.

I read file 309/58 from cover to cover in my last visit and it was in that file that we made our first brekthrough about Antony's death; Stagg Sergeant Aitken's affidavit recorded his death and his placeof burial. In that file were also many paper's about Mackensen, his crimes and his trial. If I have time, will read WO 235/ 58 and 622 and WO 208/3242 and 3269

It is an interesting passage about Fort 17 from the MI9 book. Prior to Hauptman Mackensen being Officer i/c of the Antony's Long March column, his position in Stalag XXA was Officer i/c Fort 17. No wonder there were so may shootings in that Fort, Mackensen was in charge.

Steve

 

Steve,

At least you are going on a Thursday, and thus have the benefit of longer opening hours. If you keep returning the files the staff will produce more than the 21 files allowed out to a reader at any one time.

I have seen very few Minor War Crimes Trials as conducted by Military Tribunals in the European Theatre. I was interested to see your photos of documents from the prosecutor's file. Three live witnesses plus seven affidavits should keep you quite busy. It is quite usual to have trials without live witnesses, given the particular rules of evidence that applied in these cases. That is one trial by itself. It will be interesting to find what the other was about, and your documents suggest that other investigators were interested in Mackensen's recollections, albeit there is what can be called "gallow's humour" in the letter you published.

Two items which you might like to consider ordering on your visit would be boxes of file cards only viewable under "supervision", which means going into a separate room. In WO353/5 you should find Mackensen's file card as "Accused." In WO353/18 you should find a card for L/Cpl. Anthony Coulthard. These may give you the names of witnesses in addition to the names of the witnesses you have already. I have seen very few of these cards but you may wish to explore any possibility.

These cards will not take you long to view, and you can use a camera in the special room but there are no power points. Having said that, the seats are rather grand affairs.

Affidavits and witness statements would have been sought from witnesses who had completed "Q" forms detailing War Crimes, often at the same time as a POW completed a liberation questionnaire. Affidavits were often prepared by police officers visiting an ex-serviceman's home.

The cards in WO353 have cards for witnesses and should have file references commencing F/S which probably means "File Series" plus a number or numbers. So, if you went through all the boxes of witness cards you would get all the names of the witnesses who had something to say about the march or life in the camp, provided that somebody investigating thought it was a useful statement. The listing of files at TNA often includes the old file reference.

(It is easier to do this with the Far East cases because they are on microfilm which one does not have to order.)

"Q" forms are not filed with the Liberation Questionnaires and can only be found on investigation files and on War Crimes files. The index of witnesses in WO353 is where some investigator has noted what a Q form said and put the details into the system. ( In the Far East about a third of Q forms were regarded as being of interest.)

So the boxes of Witness Cards in WO353 is not a complete series of cards of all returning POWs who completed a "Q" form.

In the book quoted "Q" forms are referred to as "En-Dor" forms, which is a pun on the title of a book about an escape in the First World War called "The Road to En-Dor", and more humour. The book has this to say at page 295:

" First came those who utterly refused to co-operate and promptly went absent without leave, usually to visit friends in Belgium or France made during an earlier abortive attempt to evade or escape, and then hitchhiked back to England, there rejoining the stream destined for home.

Secondly were those who regarded the MI 9 forms as a totally unexpected but none the less heaven-sent chance to pour out all their grievances from capture onwards, and to give vent to all their frustrations. These people gave IS 9(WEA) most trouble.....There was much silent sympathy for those in MI 9 or MIS-X whose task it would be to evaluate these statements. None of these forms have yet been released. They may all mercifully have been pulped. A few disgruntled members of escape committees worked up a series of grudges against MI 9, for being too slow and for failing to provide the earth and a quarter, when they came to write camp histories."

You are going to have a busy day, so good luck.

John

 

John, thanks for the information at the post above, will certainly look at the 353 series Witness Cards if time allows. As Antony was an inmate of Fort 17 and died at Mackensen's hands, his name may well crop up in evidence.

The Liberation Questionnaires are a bit of a mystery to me. If you look on page 4 of this thread, I have posted Dad's letter to MI9 about his and Antony's escape. This was written in response to a formatted letter saying his Liberation Questionnaire was "Inadequate for Purpose". However, I could not find his Questionnaire in the files at the NA, presumably lost or destroyed. As Antony was awarded a posthumous MiD, it was probably information about his conduct during the escape that MI9 were after and dad's letter acted as the citation. I don't know.

Will report back after the visit.
Steve

 

Steve Foster's return visit to the NA is tomorrow to follow up on recommended reading from Dr Spark. Subject will be the work of the Army Graves Services in the Kaltenhof area between 1945 and 1947. I want to give my thanks to Steve's wife Christine for her generosity in looking after everything while he's away and Steve for making the effort to get this done as I am too far away to be able to do it.

Barbara

 

Yesterday I spent the day at the NAs searching through files covering the Graves Registration and Enquiries Organisation, hopefully to find out if Antony Coulthard had been exhumed and moved to a CWGC cemetery. No joy on that front but I did look at the Index cards for the War Crimes Trials.

I found a card for Antony, Hauptman Mackensen who hung for cruelty/murder to prisoners on the Long March and for Staff Sergeant Aitken, the star witness at Mackensen's trial. Mackensen seemed to have two cards, both with different spelling, but definitely the same person.

Does anyone know what the FS means on the references on the left of the cards please? Does it stand for Field Security, and if so can those references be used to find documentation?









Steve

 

Steve
Your question "can those references be used to find documentation?"

I think that you will find copies of this type of documentation has been inserted into the War Crimes files. If you do a search you'll find a number of files relating to Mackensen under the WO and FO series.

I was at the Archives on Thursday but didn't see you!!

John

 

Thanks John,

I was on desk 24a and had a long chat with Jedburgh22 who wasn't far away!
I have read all of the Mackensen files but wondered if the FS indexing system was part of the Military Police filing system?

Steve

 

Does anyone know what the Cards were used for?
Thanks
Barbara

 

Could FS mean File Series? as the numbers that follow aren't long enough for army services units nor relate to years?

Also, I noticed on the AiTKEN Index card that it says (top right) "frozen /8/45" Does anyone know why they felt the need to do that?

 

Hi John
You say "copies of this type of dpcumentation" were inserted into the War Crimes files. I am a bit confused, can you tell me what type of documentation was inserted? Do you mean the Index Cards?
Thanks
Barbara

 

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Steve[/QUOTE]

Does anyone know what the "DV" in red letters on the top right of the card means?
B

 

Hi John
You say "copies of this type of dpcumentation" were inserted into the War Crimes files. I am a bit confused, can you tell me what type of documentation was inserted? Do you mean the Index Cards?
Thanks
Barbara

Barbara

Going through the War Crimes files you often find copies of the original investigation reports have been copied and inserted

John

 

Thanks John,

I was on desk 24a and had a long chat with Jedburgh22 who wasn't far away!
I have read all of the Mackensen files but wondered if the FS indexing system was part of the Military Police filing system?

Steve


Steve

I had coffee with Steven (Jedburgh) while we waited for the reading rooms to open. AndyBald Eagle was also there.
Afraid no idea what the FS stands for.

John

 

Barbara

Going through the War Crimes files you often find copies of the original investigation reports have been copied and inserted

John


Thanks John
Barbara