M4A3 105mm Sherman. Help Required regarding any british Allocations.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Smudger Jnr, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Whilst I have several books regarding the Sherman Tank and the different models produced, the allocation to

    various Allied Units is not noted.

    Apart from American Forces, I would like to know if the Allies, particularly the British Forces were allocated any

    M4A3 Models with the 105mm Howitzer.

    According to the Sherman Register 7 M4A3's were issued to British Forces but not used operationally and I

    believe only for Evaluation purposes.

    I ask this question as I will shortly be taking delivery of the new 1/6 scale Dragon Sherman with 105mm

    Howitzer, although I believe it also includes the mantel and gun Fittings of the 75mm Canon.


    Also whilst looking around at older threads on the Sherman I came across Adams post regarding the Technical

    Manual of the M4A3.

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/5081-the-sherman-tank-what-an-amazing-vehicle/page-10?hl=%2Bm4a3+%2B105+%2Bmm#entry121107

    Page 25 of the Manual Shows the Lubrication Points on ther Suspension System

    [​IMG] m4a3 sherman.pdf 3.45MB

    The diagram Shows the rear Suspension return roller mounted facing Forward and not to the rear.

    I have never seen any photographs of the Sherman showing this and wonder if it is a mistake?

    Unfortunately I will now be offline for a couple of weeks, but look Forward to reading any further Posts on my return.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  2. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    The Canadians in Italy probably provide your best bet; I know they brought 105-mm armed Shermans fromm Italy to NWE in 1945, but I can't recall if they were specifically M4A3 models. I'm pretty sure I've seen mention on another forum of British Armd Regts receiving some 105s in Italy towards the backend of 1944, but don't have any info on that myself.

    Gary
     
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gary

    can't recall the Canadian 5th AD having 105 mm's - possibly 1st Cdn AB had some - but 1st Cdn INf Div had Churchills in support from 21st TB which couldn't take the 17 pounder a few managed the 75 mm though

    cheers
     
  4. carbine

    carbine Junior Member

  5. carbine

    carbine Junior Member

    105mm Howitzer
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  6. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Smudger,

    I looked at this when you first posted your question. I could not fond a definitive answer to the first part but as no one else has I offer the following.

    The 105mm Sherman was a partner piece for the 76mm Sherman. As far as I know only units with 76mm Sherman received them. Monty would not have the 76mm in 21 Army Group. There are a couple of photos showing the 76mm in NW Europe with Canadians and Poles. The Canadians brought some from Italy and presumably shared some with the Poles when they served together.

    The only operational British us of the 76mm and 105mm was in Italy and they were M4A1 (Sherman IIA 76mm) and M4 (Sherman IB 105mm). These were compatible, having the same engine etc.

    Mike.
     
  7. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Trux:

    Do you have any idea why Monty was opposed to the 76mm? I know it was inferior to the 17 Pdr and not as good an anti-tank weapon as initially advertised, but it was still better in the AT role than the 75mm M3 that still armed many British Shermans. Was it just a matter of further complicating the ammo supply?

    Thanks.
     
  8. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Gary, Tom, Carbine and Mike,

    Thank you for the replies.

    TTH,

    From what I have read, the American 76 was better at Penetration especially with HV rounds, compared to the Standard 75.

    But there was no HE rounds available for the 76 mm, which were used more often than AP, for supporting infantry etc.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  9. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Had a look back through a couple of things that came to mind.

    CMHQ141 (which should just come up in a web search) says that "Towards the end of the year (presumably 1944) Shermans mounting 105-mm guns were issued to the Canadian forces in Italy on a proposed scale of six per Regiment." That would be the standard two per Sqn HQ used for CS tanks.

    As mentioned above 105-mm M4s were not used in 21AG, at least until Canadian units transferred across in early 1945. 21AG AFV returns for late March 1945 show 24 with 5th Cdn Armd Div and 23 with 1st Cdn Armd Bde. Unfortunately for Smudger Jnr, they are identified as IB models, so not M4A3s. The Canadians must've liked them, 2nd Armd Bde had 13 by May 1945, and unit entitlements had gone from 42 to 84 (allowing for two per Sqn). All the 76-mm armed Shermans in 21AG are down to 1st Polish Armd Div for the partial returns I've got for Jan-May 1945.

    Gary
     
  10. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    That is puzzling. I have Steven Zaloga's Osprey book about the Sherman, and he knows his American tanks if anyone does. He has two references to a 76mm HE shell. The 76mm HE available as of 9/43 weighed a little over 12.37 lbs., with a bursting charge of .86 lbs, considerably less than the 1.47 lb bursting charge of the 75mm HE. Zaloga also mentions an M42A1 HE round weighing 22.6 lbs, bursting charge not given. So, whatever its flaws, 76mm HE was available at least to American crews.

    I am also wondering if this shouldn't be merged with the general Sherman thread.
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Sep 16, 2022

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