Medical Treatment for Wounded British Troops Captured on D-Day

Horsapassenger, Sirjahn, Cee, brithm and everyone else - thank you so much for all your time and help with this search. At the moment it's all a bit overwhelming. I didn't imagine the forum would be so active! I started a few days ago expecting no success after a long search and now I can track my dad through most of his wartime service as well as Palestine. He never talked about 90% or more of all this.

With regard to Gerald Clarke's deposition - dad had been a lance corporal but reverted to private at his own request in April-44, so I suppose it's possible that Private Clarke was confused, I don't know?

Anyway, Guys once again many thanks - I think I need a few days to copy, record and collate all this

Cheers,

Eric

Edit - I've just re-read the original post from brithm from yesterday, and my apologies, it was Pte Bailey who met up with L/C Palmer, not Gerald Clarke; but that doesn't clear up my confusion about the Chalk 247 C-47 being hit because we know its subsequent operational history from Ft/Lt Down's log book!

 

Cee,

I've managed to copy the tracks from the drop sheet map you posted recently on to Google. I've only identified Chalk 247 separately so far, but the image now certainly highlights the wide dispersal when seen against todays mapping technology. I'll take time to add chalk numbers to the other tracks when time permits.

Cheers,

Eric

 

Hi Eric,

Pte. Bailey isn't on the stick list for CN 247, but must have been with them if he remembers jumping with Privates Leversuch and Hopkins, both of whom were killed on June 6th. We know from Pte. Bailey that the group of men your father was with made it to DZ K if they were in Cuverville or nearby. They must have realized they had to travel north east across the open area of the DZ to reach their unit.

If Major S. Ferrell is in fact Major Steven Terrell, CO of A Coy, there is a brief mention of his arrival on June 6th by CSM Cook on ParaData:

"Coy Comd arrives about 1300. Coy Comd takes over as CO and Bn takes up position on Y Junction. Coy digs in."

How he managed that is a mystery as some of the treks these men undertook to return to their unit were gruelling if roads were avoided. As for Gerald Clarke's memory of the fate of his aircraft perhaps he never quite got the full story and over the years mistook one of the crashed 8 Para Dakotas for the one he travelled on.

Regards ...

 

Brithm, Horsapassenger

I've just been going back through the posts as I collate all the info surrounding my dad and I notice in your post above that contained Pte Bailey's statement, where he says in the image file that Ptes Leversuch and Hopkins were in his plane. However if you look at Chalk 247 manifest, that is my dad's (correct Service Number) plane and Leversuch and Hopkins are also there but Bailey is not on that list. Is it possible therefore that Bailey was swapped with Gerald Clarke and that is where Clarkes recollection of his aircraft fire comes from? - possibly?

Regards,
Eric

Edit - Oops, I've done it again! Sorry Cee, just re-read your post from yesterday

 

However, I've found Pte Bailey (14413111) listed on CN 246 (K 6356) with Lt Whitley (?) as stick leader. The manifest is on a post from:
Some more info please re 8th Parachute Battalion
Discussion in 'Airborne' started by thejackal12, Mar 11, 2013.
Image file DSC03219.JPG

RegardsAll

 

Eric,

Yes it certainly is curious there was Pte. J. Bailey listed on CN 246 (KG356). Of course it could have been a different Bailey altogether? We don't really know at this point.

There is some variation in the story of what happened to CN 246. I'm inclined to believe Flight Sergeant J.A. Daldorph's version when he claims the Paras jumped when the Dakota was on fire. I can't get the link to the Canadian Wings page to work so I'll attach a capture grabbed some time ago.



Regards ...

 

Hi Cee,

If you check the service numbers you'll see the same though!

Cheers,

Eric

 

Eric,

Oh shoot I missed that completely in "WO 361_509". So it is one and the same man, Pte. J. Bailey. That is certainly an odd coincidence and well spotted.

Regards ...

 

Eric,

You may have this? The circumstances surrounding Bert Leversuch's death:

Bert Liversuch's Story

Regards ...

 

Pte. Bert Leversuch (Liversuch)

I noticed no one is rushing to comment on the location of Bert Leversuch's death, no doubt due to the fact it brings into question the drop line for CN 247/FZ679 as shown on the map which is a fair distance away from Sannerville.

I think I have the Chateau's location. The Liversuch site photo shows the building undergoing reconstruction at the time. Today it is surrounded by trees and outer buildings and finding a good view on Google Street View has been a challenge. The key identifying feature are the enormous ground floor windows.



Also the family photo of the Chateau may have been horizontally flipped at some point? The lane which approaches the Chateau today is on the right. In old post cards since discovered it is named the Chateau de Banneville. So if I'm on the right track we have another twist in the plot?

Added: Recent photo of Chateau by Christian Heeb

Regards ...

 

Normandy Airwar 1944 ... see pg 78 ... Daks start on pg 73

 

RAFCommands

Interesting article that expands on F/O Harvey Edgar Jones and KG356. The crew says all Para's bailed out and all crew except Englebert (badly wounded) and Jones. So more questions, than answers.

Also, family oral history: My mother told me that after the war my Dad had nightmares about a plane going down in flames, and he was quite bothered by it for he knew the pilot very well. She re-confirmed this to me the other day. I asked if he actually saw this or imagined he did. She said, "no he saw it and knew the pilot", but she didn't know when it happened or his name.
So I'm looking thru Dad's flight log and the ORBs and lining up dates with the article about Jones above, I'm finding there is a lot of overlap between both these Ontario boys. When I check their BCATP training & assignments at 269, 575 and them arriving a week apart at 233 Squadron, it's hard to exclude them not knowing each other. Also Dad's flight log shows they trained together on Daks as 1st and 2nd pilots in March 44. His WO Elliston also related a story about a Pilot name Jones in Iceland. Flying Hudsons then.
I'm still looking into this. Dad flew into Arnhem, on Sept 17th, 19-20th was diverted, and last their flight in was the 23rd, where they had a flak hit and KG305 (Paget) went missing. Maybe?? He may have seen this at another time when he was flying supply missions? I'll dig further.

What else should I check or where? If Jones was the plane Dad saw go down, whether he knew it was Jones then or found out later, at 8-10 km apart by the Drop line map, could he have seen that on June 6th? Were they closer? I have to believe my mom, 35 yrs ago and the other day that Dad saw this and had PTS over it for years. Dad died in 1974.

THX

 

Hi Doug,

Without going into detail it's an odd mix of tales which can lead to all kinds of speculation. However, I think we can safely say that the aircraft carrying Pte. Liversuch dropped its stick on a line that traversed Sannerville.

Aircraft going down in flames at night would have been visible for miles around. My father who landed in a tall tree in Ranville mentions seeing them:

"It was a night I will never forget, there were planes coming down on fire, machine guns hammering away and small arms fire all over the place, guys shouting in English and German and French. I had to get down the tree as fast as possible."

According to the book "The Longest Day" L/Cpl. Harold Tait of 8 Para witnessed an aircraft in flames crash near his position.

"As he was struggling to get out of his harness, Lance Corporal Harold Tait of the 8th Battalion saw one of the Dakota transports hit by flak. The plane careened over his head like a searing comet and exploded with a tremendous noise about a mile away. Tait wondered if the stick of troopers it carried had already jumped."

Regards ....

 

Thanks Cee,

I remember reading and understanding that the weather was a factor in many planes going down the Dives river and why many where dropped east of the DZ. So naturally I had to ask if it was possible for Dad to see a plane go down at 8-10km away with where the chalk lines put both planes? Thanks for clearing that part up. I can now believe no matter were FZ679 was, he could have seen this happen. As to knowing which crew it was at the time from that distance, unknown, but certainly they all found out later after KG356 and KG429 didn't return? Just as shocking, especially if you saw it happen I would think.

PS> The last thing I want to do is to speculate and cast doubt about the actions, or account of our veterans. Nice to have a Senior Member "tap me on the shoulder". I'm just a WW2 history buff and my zeal about my father's experiences puts me in the subjective at times and I forget, I wasn't there.

But ... Still puzzled about Bailey accounts with Leversuch and Hopkins, Gerald Clarke's account, Chalk 247, 246 and the drop line for FZ679. That's why I'm wondering about FZ679 and KG356 positions. I'm still looking for accounts or documentation and need to ask questions.

thanks Doug

 

I think this will have been Cuverville a little to the east of Caen on the right bank of the Orne river. I have visited there a few times. Cuverville was eventually liberated on 18 July 1944 during Operation Goodwood.

 

Hi Guys,

I've just (belatedly) had time to go through the additional posts on this thread, and a lot more information is coming together, which helps me tremendously, but I still have a problem in my head with regard to the map showing the drop tracks. My question is - who compiled this map and what information was used to position the drop tracks associated against individual CNs? If I think about Doug's dad and he believed his navigation was allowing him to drop in the correct area of DZ-K, then if he had made his post-sortie report, he would have provided co-ordinates that fitted on the DZ. He wouldn't have posted the apparent co-ordinates shown on the map, kilometres away from where he thought he was. Additionally, I find it difficult to believe that in an area overrun with German infantry & Panzer divisions, there would have been Allied spotters recording the positions of the drops. Or, was the map compiled some days after D-Day, on the basis of the positions of discarded parachutes and other equipment, or even the evidence dropped troops themselves? The one track that stands out like a sore thumb is that of CN246, running NE-SW for a much longer distance than any of the others.

All of this, at the moment, begs the question about reliance on the map for making any analyses. Hopefully someone will be able to answer the questions and shut me up.

P.S. I'm also wondering what radio communication was going on between the crews too?

Cheers,

Eric

 

Eric,

Good question but sorry I don't how they arrived at the drop line positions or who compiled it. I assume it's part of a post D-Day report seeing that it's labelled "APPX "K" Sheet 4". Here's another taken from a battlefield tour study sometime in the 70s. It appears to be based on the original and includes the entire 3rd Brigade. As far as communications I believe aircraft had to observe strict radio silence unless there was an emergency like ditching in the sea.



CN 246/KG356

I found the following information for a few men on the CN 246 stick list. The drop track for CN 246 spans both sides of the Bavent Ridge and crosses the southern edge of the Bois.

Lt. C.E. Whiteley - 229822

In the orbat for 8 Para Lieutenant G. R. Whitely is listed as CO of 1 Platoon, A Coy.

Captain Anthony Windrum 6th Airborne Divisional Signals landed 2 miles from Ranville. The first person he meets is a Capt. Geoffrey Whiteley. I'm not sure if this is the same man?

A personal account of experiences in Normandy 1944 | ParaData

"The first person I came across was Capt. Geoffrey Whiteley lying in a ditch with broken bones, and was only able to comfort him by assuring him that the stretcher bearers would be along soon."

--------------------------------------------------

Pte. D. Newell - 14212015

David Newell | ParaData

Pte. Dave Newell

Claims his aircraft was hit coming over the coast. After landing he makes his way to Ranville where he meets his brother with 12 Para

------------------------------------------------

Pte. S. Walton - 3656971

ParaData | A living history of the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces

Headstone of Pte S Walton, 8 Para, Herouvillette Cemetery. KIA June 6th,1944

-----------------------------------------------

Sgt. J.A. Iliffe - 4860760

John A Iliffe | ParaData

"Sergeant John A. Iliffe died on 6 June, 1944, aged 26 years old. He is now buried at Troarn Communal Cemetery, near Caen, Normandy."

(Note there are two other 8 Para men buried at Troarn, Sgt. John Davies and Pte. H.M. Carter, both killed June 6th, 1944.)

Fallen Heroes of Normandy | RollOfHonour

Regards ....

 

Hi,
The sheet "APPX "K" Sheet 4" comes from the report “6 Airborne Division Report on Operations in Normandy 6th June to 27th August 44”.

There is a copy online on the Paradata website. The sheet is in part two.

ParaData | A living history of the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces

ParaData | A living history of the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces

There is also a copy at Kew, WO 205/1119.

Regards

Danny

 

Cheers Danny!

Eric