Hi everyone, I am looking for some help with regards to a specific Minesweeper which I believe was numbered 139 and commanded by Lt. William Bevis on D-Day. It may be the case that William was on another minesweeper but in 1943 he was CO of 139 so I am guessing that he was on 139 on D-Day but this may not be correct. I've looked in my books and on the net and can't find anything specific and was wondering if anyone has specialised knowledge about the minesweepers which took part in Operation Neptune? Is there a list of Commanding Officers for the minesweepers? or general list of crews for the minesweepers? I have William's memoir but it lacks specific details about his D-Day activities other than that he thinks his minesweeper nearly ran into HMS Warspite. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Daniel.
Hi Daniel, I know a little bit about minesweepers and will endeavour to answer your query as best as I can. The vessel that you refer to was Motor Minesweeper (MMS) 139 and I confirm that the Commanding Officer during the period of Operation Neptune was indeed Lt (Ty) Bill Bevis RNVR. (Ref. 1). He was the CO until October 1944. Including a reserve flotilla there were seven Motor Minesweeping Flotillas assigned to coastal inshore duties in the first days of Op. Neptune, each flotilla having 9-10 ships (Ref. 2). There were 3 flotillas assigned to cover the Omaha/Utah areas in the American sector, and 3 covering the Gold/Juno/Sword areas in the British/Canadian sector. The flotillas were: Motor Mine Sweeping (MMS) Flotillas – 101st, 102nd, 104th, 115th, 132nd, 143rd, and 205th; (Ref 3). Without more detailed research at this moment I cannot allocate the above flotillas to each sector - but can confirm that MMS139 was present (Ref. 4). If she almost ran into HMS Warspite, then it is most likely she was one of the two flotillas covering the approaches to Sword Beach in the Brit/Can. eastern sector where this famous battleship was one of the main bombarding warships. There is no general lists of crews for minesweepers. Minesweeper logs/flotilla records were, in the main, lost/chucked/destroyed/not retained by the Admiralty or Public Records Office after the period of the 1960s. References 1. U-boat.net 2. Allied Minesweeping in World War 2: Peter Elliot; publ. Patrick Stephens Limited, 1979 3. The Role of the Minesweepers in Operation Neptune 1944: David Verghese; MCDOA website, Dit box section. 4. The D-Day Ships: John de S. Winser: Publ. World Ship Society, 1994 I note that the author in Ref. 3 is giving a presentation on June 5th at the 'Gosport Discovery Centre, Hampshire D-Day commemoration event, entitled "Forgotten but Fundamental - the Role of the Minesweepers in Operation Neptune - June 1944". Rattler
Thank you so much Rattler that confirms the vital piece of info I needed, very much appreciated. All the best, Daniel.
Tempy. Lieut William Benjamin BEVIS, RNVR was indeed commanding MMS 139, and was Second Senior Officer in 115th M/S. Flotilla, which was part of Force 'S' and assigned as escort to ROBERTS, and was to remain with Bombarding Force 'D': ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OPERATION NEPTUNE FORCE "S" ORDERS (Short Title: ONEAST/S) ONEAST/S.1. GENERAL. 21.5.44. APPENDIX I - LIST OF SENIOR AND COMMANDING OFFICERS (Ctd.) (Note: + denotes qualified Officer). SECTION B - ATTACHED TO FORCE 'S' (Ctd.) PART 3 - MINESWEEPERS. (...) Name and Rank Embarked in Seniority + Tempy. Acting Lieut. S.O. 115th M/S.F. M.M/S. 29 1.11.41. Commander J.T. RIDD, (as Lt.) D.S.C., R.N.V.R. Tempy. Lieut. W.B. BEVIS, 2nd S.O. " M.M/S. 139 22.7.41. R.N.V.R. (...) OPERATION NEPTUNE–NAVAL ORDERS (Short Title : ON) -------------------- ON 6.–Instructions for Minesweeping 10.4.44 INFORMATION Minesweeping Forces 1. The following is the allocation of the minesweeping forces available. (For details of the composition of flotillas and groups see ON6, Appendix III.) Eastern Task Force (...) 115th M.S.F. (M.M.S.) .. .. .. .. .. Force S. 143rd M.S.F. (M.M.S.) .. .. .. .. .. Force S. (...) Western Task Force (...) 104th M.S.F. (M.M.S.) .. .. .. .. .. Force O. 132nd M.S.F. (M.M.S.).. .. .. .. .. Force U. (...) Allied Naval Commander-in-Chief's Reserve 2. In addition to the above the following will be immediately available :– 101st M.S.F. (M.M.S.) For special duty with MULBERRIES. 102nd M.S.F. (M.M.S.) ) Will escort on D Day and will then be available to relieve 205th M.S.F. (M.M.S.) ) flotillas under Task Force Commanders (...) Instructions for Minesweeping (Short Title : ONEAST 6) 8.5.44 Sailing of Minesweeping Flotillas [1.] The Commander-in-Chief, Portsmouth, is requested to sail– (...) (d) 115th M.M.S. Flotilla so as to enter Channel 10 in Latitude 50° 00' 00'' N., as escort to H.M.S. ROBERTS (see ONEAST 8). (...) Orders for M.M.S Flotillas 28. The 115th M.M.S. Flotilla is to act directly under the orders of the Flag Officer Commanding, 2nd Cruiser Squadron, and will escort H.M.S. " ROBERTS " on passage through the Swept channel. (...) ON 6.–Instructions for Minesweeping–continued Appendix III.–Composition of Flotillas and Groups–continued M.M.S.–continued 1.5.44 (...) 115th M.S.F. will be composed of eight plus two spare ships, to be selected from the 115th M.S.F. and the 119th M.S.F. 115th M.S.F. M.M.S. 6, 7, 22, 29, 30, 55, 139, 165, 205 119th M.S.F. M.M.S. 49, 66, 91, 202, 204, 213, 220, 221 PRESENT BASE PORTSMOUTH OPERATIONAL BASE DOVER FORCE S OPERATION NEPTUNE–EASTERN TASK FORCE NAVAL OPERATION ORDERS (Short Title : ONEAST) ---------------------- Instructions to Eastern Naval Task Force before H Hour (Short Title : ONEAST 7) Appendix I–Table of Sailing Signals 8.5.44 Sailing (...) 3. (...) 115th M.M.S. Flotilla from Dover will rendezvous with ROBERTS off Porstmouth. (...) Instructions to Eastern Task Force Bombarding Forces–continued (Short Title : ONEAST 8) Appendix V.–Timing of Minesweepers and Bombarding Force D 8.5.44 ROBERTS and 115th M.M.S. Enter Channel, H–5h 55m 10 in. 50° N. 10 kts Pass Knuckle, H–3h 12m 49° 34' N. ; Reduce to 9 kts 00° 15' W. (...) Note 2.–Rowley, Holmes and 115th M.M.S. Flotilla will remain with Bombarding Force D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michel
Part of my Post #4 above was missing, so I've edited it. It's now complete with all I could find on MMS 139 and the 115th MS Flotilla. Michel
Hi, Sorry to jump onto this thread, but a friend of mine is looking to find out about her father who was on minesweepers. Can you advise me on some good sources to help her find some information, please? Are you able to get War Diaries and Service Histories for them like you can for Army units? Many thanks, Ian
Does your friend know on board which minesweeper(s) her father was? This would help since there were a few hundreds, if not thousands, of them Any detail as to his name, rank/position, flotilla and what not, might also help. The info in my post above is from the ONEAST orders, a 3562-page document available on fold3, which takes ages to get since one has to download every page one by one, plus you must pay for an all-access yearly subscription. As for Ship's Logs or M/S Flotillas Records etc., some might have survived at the National Archives, but again knowing the particular vessel(s) is necessary. Chances are slim though, as Rattler pointed out in his post above. If an officer, some of your friend's father's particulars might be found in the Navy Lists. Other than that, the references provided by Rattler should also prove valuable. Michel
Hi Michel, Thanks for the reply. This is all the information she has given me: Occupation: Joined Royal Navy, Dec 1941, HMS Ganges - Shotly Barracks. Occupation: Able Seaman - Anti-Submarine / Air Sea Rescue Patrol, 1941- October 1943. Occupation: Joined "Combined Operations" Skipper of a landing craft LBO 58, Abt. October 1943- Abt. September 1944. Occupation: LDG/Seaman Coxwain LT. JX. 351334 LBO 58 (Landing Barge Oil) "W" Squadron, "J" Force 37th S+R Flotilla, "D"Day 0745 June 6 1944, Juno (Red) Beach. Occupation: Caught AWOL on way to meet Violet his future wife, at Waterloo Station, London - demoted back to Able Seaman, Abt Sep 1944. Occupation: Tour of duty in the Far East ( Ceylon, India, Burma, Thailand, Malaya, Singapore) during which former rank reinstated., Abt Sept 1944 - Abt Nov 1945. Occupation: De -Mobbed, 1945, Chatham, Kent, England. Military Award: 1939 - 46 Star, Burma Star - Pacific, Pacific & Germany Star, Defence Medal, Victory Medal, 1939 - 45 Minesweeper & Anti Submarine Medal, When I first spoke to her about getting the history I did not realise he was Navy. When I had done similar research for my grandfather (Royal Artillery) I had been able to get War Diaries that helped give a bit more specifics about his roles and movements during the war. However, I have no idea how to go about it with Navy. I'll have a look at the sources that Rattler provided and if anyone has anything to add to the above information it will be a great help. Many thanks, Ian
Ian, I can't see any reference to any service with minesweepers. The "1939-45 Minesweepers & Anti Submarine Medal" looks like a standard award given to anyone who served with either Minesweeper or Anti Submarine craft, in your friend's father's case apparently the latter (Anti Submarine) only. Nice bit about the cause of his demotion from skipper of an LBO to simple A/B though Your friend can be proud of her father braving the ire of the Senior Service for the love of (presumably) her mother, years before "Make Love not War" became fashionable... Michel
Thanks for the help. I'll try and concentrate my efforts on LBO 58 and see if I can rustle up some info. Kind regards, Ian
Ian, Here's a couple of pages about Landing Barges which may be of interest to you: http://www.naval-history.net/WW2MiscRNLandingBarges.htm http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/amphib.php?id=22 A photo of an LBO (Diesel) off the beaches: from http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675038232_American-ships_Omaha-beach_damaged-piers_floating-supplies also viewable here, starting at 2:08, with a view of the after part from 1:32 (you can adjust the viewing paratmeters to 1080p-HD): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBds04fvK8g Michel
Hi there this is about my late Dad Tom Pead I had asked Ian how to go about his war diary’s. Dad was on minesweepers sweeping the Solent I believe before Normandy. I think it was from queenborough. He was also at Hamble on the river. Thanks Sharon oh I found this thread by accident but was good to find.
Hi Daniel and Rattler, In respnse to to your information my grandfather Lt.Skipper Cecil Coombe RNR was skipper of MMS 251,MMS 251 was assigned to 143rd Flotila of Operation Neptune and later involved in the mine clearance of the Scheldt Estuary and the approaches to Antwerp,Belgium.Lt.Skipper Cecil Coombe was with MMS 251 until at least July 1945.Hope this is some help. Yours sincerely, Graham Evans
Hi Guys, I' researching my grandfather of the same name Hudson, Edward Gerald, RNVR. From Aug 14 1943 he was skipper HMS MMS 165 (J 665). I think his rank at the time would be Ty/Liutenant. I have some records of an action when H.M.M.S.49 was damaged by an accoustic mine on 5th September 1944. My Grandfather's ship picked up the survivors and took the boat in tow. What I am keen to find out is where MMS165 was involved in Operation Neptune, if anyone can shed any light? Separatly, having trained as a Signalman in 1938/39 his ships were as follows:- please excuse spellings as I'm reading off a back of a very faded wooden picture frame: If there is a ".", I can't read the writing H..S ....Dore ? 1938 HMS Sheffield - 1939 HMS "Saad.....s" - 1939 HMT Hampshire 1939 MMT Uberouus 1940 - sunk 1941 HMY Sylvana Sept 1941 HMT Brabant Oct 4th 1941 HM MMS 165 June 12th 1942 I have found pictures of the Brabant and a little information on the sinking of the Uberous. If anyone has any further information on the ships or can fill in the blanks, I would be most greatful. Kind regards E G Hudson (Ed)
Hello Ed, Welcome to the forum. Did you request your grandfather's Service Record? Could you post a good (well, as good as possible) photo of the back of the frame? H..S ....Dore ? 1938 might be HMS Appledore (shore base), but without seeing the photo is it impossible to say whether this name would fit or not. Michel
Ed, You're correct. The June 1944 Navy List gives your Grandfather as with MMS 165 and as Temporary Lieutenant RNVR (seniority 1 Nov 42) (see attachments). MMS 165 was part of 115th MS Flotilla. See my Post #4 above for details of the Flotilla's part in Op NEPTUNE. Michel
