Monte Casino - Italy

Discussion in 'Italy' started by RICHARD ROE, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. RICHARD ROE

    RICHARD ROE Junior Member

    Who was the responsible U.S. General?
     
  2. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Welcome to the Forum Richard. The first three Cassino battles were fought by the US 5th Army (which had British & Commonwealth Divisions) under command of General Mark Clark. The final battle was a joint effort with the British 8th Army.

    Cheers, Gerry
     
  3. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Hi, Richard, welcome to the forum. Do tell us about yourself! You'll enjoy it here! :)
     
  4. Market_Garden1982

    Market_Garden1982 Junior Member

    If I am not mistaken, i think some FFL (Free french forces) where at this battle, maybe under commonwealth command?
    By the way hello everybody, I'm new :)
     
  5. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by Market_Garden1982@Jul 24 2005, 11:32 AM
    If I am not mistaken, i think some FFL (Free french forces) where at this battle, maybe under commonwealth command?
    By the way hello everybody, I'm new :)
    [post=36799]Quoted post[/post]


    Yes.

    French Moroccan 8th army troops as well as New Zealand, Polish, Indian & Canadian.
     
  6. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by spidge+Jul 24 2005, 11:12 AM-->(spidge @ Jul 24 2005, 11:12 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Market_Garden1982@Jul 24 2005, 11:32 AM
    If I am not mistaken, i think some FFL (Free french forces) where at this battle, maybe under commonwealth command?
    By the way hello everybody, I'm new  :)
    [post=36799]Quoted post[/post]


    Yes.

    French Moroccan 8th army troops as well as New Zealand, Polish, Indian & Canadian.
    [post=36817]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Here is a link to the Free French OOB at various times 1940-45:

    http://212.234.185.8/article.php3?id_article=160

    Prior to the invasion of French North Africa (Operation Torch) in Novemver 1942, the Free French forces were pretty small and largely concerned with holding those French colonies which they controlled, although note the account of the 1st Free French Brigade at Bir Hakeim in the Western Desert.

    So, next time you are at Bir Hakeim metro station in Paris, the closest one to le Tour Eiffel, you will know where the name comes from.

    The Free French forces underwent two big expansions during the war. The first was when they were in effect able to take over the Vichy army in North Africa after Torch. The second was in the second half of 1944 as most of France was liberated and large parts of the FFI (internal resistance forces) were drafted into the army en masse.

    The French forces which fought in Italy and took part in the landing in the south of France in August 1944 were largely from the old Vichy army.
     
  7. Market_Garden1982

    Market_Garden1982 Junior Member

    OK, I ask the question because in my trip in France i met an old soldier of the 8th
    army, a french soldier, he told me the day they attack monte casino a reporter went to meet him, the reporter just came back from the front line and he said to the french soldier :"2 battalion of rangers annihilated"
    When he told me that , i had goosebumb even if i knew this happened 60 years ago...anyway i just wanted to share that experience with you guys. :)

    Carl
     
  8. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    Originally posted by Gerry Chester@Mar 15 2005, 08:48 AM
    Welcome to the Forum Richard. The first three Cassino battles were fought by the US 5th Army (which had British & Commonwealth Divisions) under command of General Mark Clark. The final battle was a joint effort with the British 8th Army.

    Cheers, Gerry
    [post=32198]Quoted post[/post]


    General Mark Clark, if Im not mistaken, has some controversy surrounding his strategic decisions. Particularly around his decision to liberate Rome. At the time he sent his forces to Rome, the Germans were on the other side of the Italian penninsula retreating. If General Clark had moved his forces across Italy, he would have effectively cut them off and they would have been surrounded by allied troops.

    However instead he went to Rome, for I beleive vanity reasons and to stroke his ego. As a result of him being credited and going down in historywith the liberation of Rome, the German armies retreating were able to escape and form a new defensive line.

    As a result The New Zealand division slowly slogged their way up the entire Italian pennisula fighting the Germans to the last. This cost the lives of many New Zealanders.

    As I say I stand to be corected but thought I would throw it out there for debate.

    cheers kiwiazza.
     
  9. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Market Garden1982, re your comment from the Frenchman "2 battalion of rangers annihilated", as the French didn't have 'Rangers' I would say this comment related to the 1st and 3rd US Ranger Battalions on 31st January, 1944, moving from the Anzio Beachhead to Cisterna. Out of 767 men only 6 got away, the others killed, wounded or missing.

    No.9
     
  10. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Kiwiazza - "the Germans were on the other side of the Italian peninsula retreating. If General Clark had moved his forces across Italy, he would have effectively cut them off and they would have been surrounded by allied troops." - Right sentiment, wrong geography. The 5th and 8th Armies were to move up Italy in rough unison. The Apennine mountain range runs sharply down the centre of Italy and only reaches 'softer', coast to coast traverse proportions around east of Naples. If you go up the Adriatic coast you don't find a similar situation until you reach the Po valley in the north, the plain of Lombardy. Then you've got to calculate how much of the German forces will try to reach Bologna over the mountains from Florence, and how much will go for the coast route to Genoa. Of course the Germans will be holding the north bank of the river Po so your northern flank is vulnerable, which, if you chose to engage will leave the Germans free to roll up through Genoa and cross to their sector at Tortona or Alessandria and other points west.

    The 'going for Rome' and 'failing to cut off the retreat' you refer to applies to the Liri Valley on the Mediterranean coast after the German pull-out from the Gustav Line in the Cassino sector, and the breakout from the Anzio beachhead. Clark was under orders from Alexander, Supreme Commander, to achieve the Alban hills and dominate routes 6 and 7 to stop the German retreat north. Instead, as you say, he had a personal agenda to be the first military commander to enter Rome from the south for some 2000 years, and disobeyed orders. Rome was an 'Open City' anyway and while it's 'liberation' had some public morale value - immediately overshadowed by the invasion of Normandy days later - the act allowed German forces to withdraw in numbers, with equipment, and positively extended the war in Italy with inevitable extra fatalities.

    Regarding the New Zealand Division 'slogging their way up the entire peninsular', yes they did, but so did everyone else.

    No.9
     
  11. Kiwiazza

    Kiwiazza Member

    No 9.

    Thanks for setting the record straight and clarifying my rather vague summary of events. I never realizsed General Mark Clark actually disobeyed orders in that action. And yes, when I said the New Zealanders slogged there way up the Italian pennisula, I didnt mean just us, ofcourse there were other Allied troops involved as well and full respect was intended to to them all. . Did General Clarke suffer any repercusssions for directly disobeying orders??

    regards kiwiazza
     
  12. No.9

    No.9 Senior Member

    Kiwiazza - Glad the observations were useful. Regarding Mark Clark, he appears to have been a bit of a 'Teflon' General. He was often utterly awful, right through to the last part of the Italian campaign, and got away with it. However, the reasons for the lack of address are several and found in the bigger picture.

    Going back to West Point days, Clark actually did well, and, was close friends of Cadet Eisenhower. Clark was originally in a much more influential position than Eisenhower and played a part in supporting Ike when he was considered for senior appointment. Further down the line, as Eisenhower rose in status, understandably he generally looked favourably on his old friends and supporters.

    An early occasion when Clark's inordinate arrogance and disregard for the British showed itself was prior to Operation Torch, when, as American commander, he was briefed by British Intelligence on the information they had on North Africa. The briefing was conducted in London by Stewart Menzies personally, head of the Secret Service. Menzies later stated that Clark began fidgeting at an early stage, looking at his watch, then announced he had to be 'elsewhere', and left!.

    In the invasion of the Italian mainland, to his credit, he advocated a landing above Naples where the terrain is considerably flatter than at Salerno. This was ruled out largely due to being considered as too far north for adequate air cover. He was therefore obliged to use Salerno, but, consequently, appears to have treated the landing like a disgruntled child who didn't get its own way. It's of course easy to pick over the bones of an event after its happened, but, there were at least two major flaws in his plan. First, Clark did not want a pre-landing bombardment - because he wanted to preserve the element of surprise - and secondly, the force was landed either side of a major river which meant one sector could not reinforce/support the other if needed. At one point the battle went so badly, Clark states he was going to evacuate the American sector and put them back in on the British sector. He also states he decided not to order the standard preparation to destroy the stockpile of supplies on the beach which would then have been given to the enemy. Other personal accounts of the time say Clark wanted a full evacuation and only his commanders turned the situation around. For sure, at one point only the apparent reluctance of the Germans to exploit a penetration vantage spared the Americans. Further to Clark's plan of this two pronged fiasco, Clark states; "There was a ten-mile gap between the British X Corps and the American VI Corps at the end of the day's struggle, but that did not seem too serious."

    Later at the Gustav Line, Clark's order for the 36th Texas ('T' Patchers) to cross the Rapido River (protested at the time by his commanders), resulted in horrendous loss which subsequently Texas wanted investigated. Rumblings occured but the matter was eventually tidied away.
    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/tslac/20015/tsl-20015.html

    Regarding Clark's turn to Rome instead of cutting off the German withdrawal, his disobeying orders is not an assumption. In his autobiography, 'Calculated Risk', Clark clearly states he intended to be the 'liberator of Rome' all along, no matter what. Furthermore, after the war a British newspaper executive, Brian Harpur, who had been an officer in Italy, wrote an excellent book, 'Impossible Victory', about his experiences in Italy. Harpur too wanted to know what Clark's motives were and went to interview the retired General in America. No surprise, Clark confirmed to him that he did exactly what he personally wanted to do irrespective of what he was ordered to do. If you read Clark's book, you'll also find his explanation of the destruction of the Cassino monastery at the insistence of the New Zealand commander, General Freyberg VC.

    Why Clark was not cashiered for disobeying orders was probably due to several factors, including because he was an American 'good 'ole boy' only disobeying a British superior. Who was going to discipline him, the British, the Americans, Eisenhower? Clark's boss, Alexander, was an awfully awfully nice chap, very agreeable, very career minded, political, and as a commander, soft. The invasion of Normandy was under way, was Churchill going to take time out to press a point with Roosevelt and provide the enemy with a propaganda opportunity. And, Clark did 'liberate' Rome - albeit only worth a brief headline of the 'Side-show War' but it looked good in the press.

    Clark had the winter of '44 to get his butt into gear while the advance consolidated and waited for the spring offensive - which he conducted 'by the book'. Undoubtedly 'words' were said and a few home truths discretely imparted to him. One can only presume after the war he was happy to live with the memories of his actions, which as Brian Harpur found, publicly at least he was.

    No.9
     
  13. SHERMANTANKAUTHOR

    SHERMANTANKAUTHOR shermantankauthor

    ...........I know Clark was responsible for the Rapido disaster.....but unsure if he was responsible for Cassino specifically..............comments anyone?
     
  14. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Clark applied huge pressure on Gen Keyes Comd, II (US) Corps, to push ahead with the crossing. He wanted to draw German troops well away from the landing at Anzio that was scheduled to take place on 22 Jan 44.

    As it turned out, the records of 15 Pz Gren Div, the unit manning the defences directly over the Rapido from 36 US Div troops, had a very minor entry in the log immediately following the failure. This is hardly a unit calling for reserves.
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    SHERMANTANKAUTHOR -
    You PM'd me earlier but your message was lost in opening same - can you tell me what it was all about ...? something about 36th..?
    Cheers
     
  16. PanzerGav

    PanzerGav Junior Member

    On this topic, i know infomation is widely avaliable on the internet but can i suggest a book i've read a couple of times called Monte Cassino by Matthew Parker. For anyone in Blighty, it was interesting reading in the book about Spike Milligans account of his part in the battle for Monte Cassino.
     
  17. Tab

    Tab Senior Member

    When the break through occurred US General Clark was told to swing around the back of the mountains and cut of the retreating Germans, these orders were clear and in writing, still ignored to take Rome and become the first General in two thousand years to take Rome from the south, in doing so the Germans escaped only to form other defensives lines and keep the war going in Italy for another year.

    The first troops to brake through the Mountains at Monte Casino where French troops, also fighting there were were Polish, Gurkha, Indian and New Zealand troops and if I have missed any then I will apologise now.
     
  18. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Slightly off Tab but otherwise sound. Clark was ordered to breakout of Anzio and head for Valmontone by breaking into the Velletri Gap between the Alban Hills and the Lepini Hills. This was Op BUFFALO. He followed orders for two days until, on 25 May 44, he switched the attack, and most of the armoured troops on Op BUFFALO, to a new line of advance towards Rome. This was Op TURTLE and went straight for Rome through the strongest part of the German defence line to the SW of the Alban Hills. He did want to be the first General to take Rome from the south but it was in 15 centuries.

    His bacon was saved by an outstanding piece of opportunism by 36 US Inf Div over the top of Monte Artemisio. This strike broke the German resistance and forced them into a full retreat beyond Rome.

    Clark's action on 25 May 44 stalled an otherwise highly successful thrust towards Valmontone and allowed the Germans to hold the town for long enough to let most of the German Tenth Army to escape from Cassino and get well north of Rome. This makes Clark an insubordinate muppet in my view. Had it been commanded by an American rather than a British Officer, it is likely that he would have been sacked for this act.

    The French Expeditionary Corps did indeed break the Gustav Line first but it was further down towards the coast rather than at Monte Cassino. They got into the mountains from jump off positions that X (BR) Corps had secured in Jan 44 - well beyond the Garigliano so did not have to endure the challenge of a river crossing.
     
  19. Tab

    Tab Senior Member

    If I remember rightly Clark had also told the US General who lead the landings at Anzio to wait at Anzio until he had sufficient forces before moving out and this was also against instruction laid down, and when the whole thing bogged down then Clark was sent in to sort it out
     
  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    There are times when I think that the efforts of many veterans to pass on their knowledge of events of long ago is all so much of a total waste of time when we have people not knowing what actually happened in Italy and especially at a place called Monte Cassino - NOTE WELL - I spell the name correctly - it was not a gambling casino but a place in Central Italy and the key strong point in the German effort to stop our advance - which they did very successfuly for nearly six months at a tremendous cost in lives and disabilities to far too many....

    Some of those vets are here on this forum such as Ron - Gerry - Niccar - myself -and no doubt others all of whom have many memories of that time.....but to put some posters straight on this thread would take far too long so I would advise that before anyone else post their 2 cents worth - they should take the time and trouble to read the book by John Ellis - "Cassino - The Hollow Victory" - ISBN - 0 - 233 - 97569 - 1
    THEN come back and post your INFORMED 2 cents worth.....

    I would also ask you to "google" and read the "Return to Cassino" by a Canadian - Stan Scislowski who served with the 5th Cdn Armoured Division - then you might apprectiate what actually went on at Monte Cassino in those days - or Gerry's account of the first day of Diadem - and learn about fighting in Tanks

    Cheers
     

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