More help please - My great-grandfather, Driver William Hancock, Royal Corps of Signals

Hi Lee,

Any news on that Japanese index card??

 

Steve Mac - Thank you again!

Wills - You must have great eyes to see that says After Defence Medal (I can barely make out medal - there's just one word before it, how do you know it's After Defence?). Does this mean he got two medals?

bamboo43 - Recieved an estimate from NR (£10) and paid, so hopefully it will be here soon!

Still puzzled on many of the initialing etc... Any ideas on the following?

AA Militia
Driver 1.C (Driver First Class?)
WCR Serial
Tele Op Sec

I will put the last two sheets up tomorrow after the 'C' sheets have been fully deciphered by the experts!

Many thanks as always.

 

Part II Orders - these are notification of occurrence. Courses,promotion, postings- in fact all soldier occurrences are published. A part II order will have a reference number and date, eg 1234/39. If a soldier is promoted by his CO, all departments need to know this, pay office, clothing stores (chevrons etc) - in this case the medals office. Nothing will be issued without documents like Pt II orders. No, one medal, the notification of qualification for Defence medal under PtII Order 54/47.


A good magnifying glass!


AA this looks to be (Hansard) the old A Army Reserve, renamed (for pay reasons and posting reasons) the Militia, there were arguments over the pay scales of regular and reserves/militia

C1 this would be a trade classification, again pay. B2 b3 etc.


Tele Op Sec - Need a Signaller for this - I suspect Tele Op Sec - is his secondary qualification. Tele Op is listed as telephone operator

WCR Listed as POW on the War Casualty Return Serial 4914 (0 or 6 ?)


Defence Medal Applications -Hansard 30 May 1946.

Missing personnel Far East (Dependents allowances) Hansard 27 March 1945. Also 10 October 1945

 

Having searched in vain for - Staff Duties and Staff Duties in the Field. I have managed to find - the Field Service Pocket Book. Canadian reprint this copy - 25th Canadian Field Regt Orderly Room RCACA (A) 16 June 43.


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The last two documents - i'm not sure what they are, are they the Army's own death registrations?

Anyway, here they are -

Sheet D1
0. Registration number 1398332
1. Surname HANCOCK
2. Christian Names William
3. Army Number 2317493
4. Regiment or Corps R. SIGNALS 280
5. Nature of Engagement R/S S/3
6. Date of Enlistment 3.8.39
7. Date of Birth 21.7.04
8. Nationality E [English]
9. Religion CE [Church of England]
10. Industry Group SA
11. Occupational Classification 225-27
12. Cause of becoming Non-effective Presumed killed in action at sea whilst a P.O.W [Prisoner of War] Cat ‘C’ Far East
12. (a) Date 21.9.44
13. Single or Married M [Married]
14. Home Town and County Worksop, Notts
19. Location Missing

A. Rank Dvr [Driver] 1c 11d 1.2.40 1 Army Sigs
C. Medical Category F1
F. 11
G. 3/244

Sheet D2

Part II Postings
?? ?? Corps Sigs 11.3.41
Serial 1/42 28/2/42 Missing Malya
Serial 49/43 P. of War 15.2.42

Can anyone help with the bit before the first line?

As this is the last one, I'll have one last clean-up before coming back with the remaining gaps i'm still puzzled by!

Many thanks again.

 

?? ?? Corps Sigs 11/3/41 under PT II Order - M.AG(or C)I , this is a file reference M/ for either Adjutant Generals Instruction or Army Council Instruction.


Serials in Part II column are file or part II order reference. ie: Serial 49/43 49th occurence of 1943.

 

Thanks again Wills!

What are the 'D' sheets above? Are they Army Death Registration cards?

Anyway, this morning I finally received the Japanese POW cards I ordered from National Archives.

As expected, most of it is in Japanese so if anyone has any idea what some of the words mean it'd be much appreciated. If not, does anyone know how I could have them translated?

Here they are -

Sheet E1
Camp [Translated - ??] 17 8 17
Name Hancock, William.
Nationality [Translated - ??]
Rank Lance-Corporal
Place of Capture [Translated - ??]
Place of Origin Woodend, Notts., England
Destination of Report Mrs William Hancock, 21, Woodend, Worksop, Notts., England
No. [Japanese] 966
Date of Birth 1904-7-21
Unit No. 2317493 Royal Corps of Signals.
Date of Capture 17 2 15
Occupation [translated - ??]


Sheet E2
Other Informations.
[translated - ??]


Finally guys, are there any other documents I might be able to obtain regarding my great grand-father?

I have now got his full Military Service Record (from Glasgow) and his Japanese POW card (from NA) - is there anything else out there that I'm not aware of that I might want to get hold of to add to my research?

Many thanks as always.

Lee

 

COFEPOW - Children of Far East Prisoners of War

Suggest sending Japanese docs, to above. Good luck!




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/JapanesePowCamps-WWII-back.jpg


In Memory of my late Uncle Serjeant Robert,Easton Duthie 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders ashes at Kanchanaburi War Cemetery.

 

Hello Lee,

See thread per link re Japanesse POW cards:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/general/35388-north-lancashire-loyal-regiment-john-terry-fepow-3.html

You should drop Steve (handle: bamboo43) a line; he may be able to assist you!

Best,

Steve.

 

Hi Lee,

So it finally arrived then.

FEPOW Community may well be able to help with a translation.

Fepow Community

Check out their Community group from the main menu.

The red diagonal line simple represents his death whilst a POW.
The numerical numbers 17/8/17 will represent a camp location.
His personal camp POW number was 966.
Date of original capture 15th February 1942.

Reverse side:

Top line could well relate to his cause of death.
Next line I would hazard a guess is the date of death, or date of sinking at least, plus what looks like a longitude/latitude position for the ship and an approximate time.
The date shown is 21st September 1944.

Hope this is of use?

Steve

 

Hi Kivo,

Sorry it took so long to geet back to you.

Regarding the medals, I believe we now have confirmed that he was entittled to :

1939-45 star
Pacific Star
Defence medal as shown on the paper work.

Now, what is missing from the paperwork is the Britsh War Medal 1939-45.

The reason for it not appearing on the documents is that it was not promulgated till after 10/1947 which if I read correctly was the last date shown in relation to medals. It stands to reason that at that stage, the war medal had not come into existance when the file was actioned.

Now regarding the Efficiency Medal, I read Steve MAC's concerns regarding qualification & on face value it could be argued that there was no entittlement.

However, the Efficiency Medal underwent a number of changes & was NEVER limmited to the Territorial Army. the Efficiency medal bar Militia is another issue of it. By definition, the Militia is (supplimentary Reserve) as per the question asked on the attestation form you posted.

I do not suggest I know it all, & the regulations underwent 3 initial changes under Royal Warrant but I would suggest to you that an application be made for it & see what the judges say, also, with the War Medal ( unless there is undeniable proof it was mailed out).

If anything, it appears to be a broken group which should be put back together.

Make sure that the time in Reserves is described as "Supplimentary Reseves"- (Militia), and I do not beleive that you will have an issue in obtaining it, it will be the only named medal in the group.

hope this is of help to you.

Regards

simon

 

Hi Lee,

So it finally arrived then.

FEPOW Community may well be able to help with a translation.

Fepow Community

Check out their Community group from the main menu.

The red diagonal line simple represents his death whilst a POW.
The numerical numbers 17/8/17 will represent a camp location.
His personal camp POW number was 966.
Date of original capture 15th February 1942.

Reverse side:

Top line could well relate to his cause of death.
Next line I would hazard a guess is the date of death, or date of sinking at least, plus what looks like a longitude/latitude position for the ship and an approximate time.
The date shown is 21st September 1944.

Hope this is of use?

Steve

Kivo,

Good to se the folks at FEPOW have helped you out with a translation. Some useful info gained there.

 

Dear Steve,
The numbers 17/8/17 are not a camp location but a date, in the order year, month, day. In this case the year is Showa 17, eighth month, day 17, meaning that on the 17th August 1942 something was reported concerning Lance Corporal Hancock. The symbol in mauve to the left of the date represents Thailand, otherwise known as Siam.
However, whether L/Cpl Hancock was actually in Thailand on that date or whether he was assigned to Group 2, which was destined to travel to Thailand at some future date, is not clear. The card seems to be a replacement card for the original, because it has very little on it. I am comparing it with the card for my relative who was also reported as lost on the s.s. Hofuku Maru. In his case the date was 15th August 1942 and the rubber stamp symbols for "island Singapore" were deleted and replaced by the symbol for Thailand.
I cannot read Japanese but find that "Google Translate" is useful.

Yours, John

 

Hi John,

Thanks for correcting me on this one. So does this mean that the 19/3/15 on most of my Rangoon Jail cards relates to that date in 1944 (15th March) as a point the POW records were updated or even first written down?

Steve

 

Dear Steve,

If you look at the British records produced in this thread for L/Cpl.W. Hancock there are some columns for "date of recording" which the Imperial Japanese Army record card lacks. Instead the IJA card just has "Date of Birth" and "Date of Capture". It might be that you have to follow the colour of the rubber stamp used so that two entries, say for the date and a symbol for a country or a prisoner number ( POWs could have several numbers) in one colour means that the entry was made on the date with the matching colour. I am, however, just guessing.

In the present case I have seen IJA cards now in WO345 at The National Archives which are for the persons who embarked on the s.s."Hofuku Maru" and who did not survive either the voyage before the sinking or the sinking ( two events which the records do not seem to be able to distinguish.) British intelligence was to the effect that 98 poor souls had died of illness on the voyage prior to 21st September 1944, and a further fifty had been disembarked at Manila bound for a POW hospital at the end of August, 1944.

These cards have more information which I can only partially read. The top line of one card seems to suggest that on 21st October 1942 the POW reached Thailand - in colour mauve. The next line then seems to say that in Showa 18 without month or date the POW was still in Thailand- colour mauve. The following line is red, as per the card for L/Cpl Hancock. I do know that you are right about the position of the sinking and I do know that some of the script refers to the name of the ship. The code "KA27" refers to the convoy.
I am not answering your question, except to say that the date seems to be translated correctly. I do know that the key to understanding POW records is to obtain a copy of a fairly rare book which your library could probably obtain for you called:

"The Story of Changi" by David Nelson, published by the Changi Publication Co. in 1974 ISBN 0 9503243-0-2.

As I recall, this suggests that the remarkable David Nelson, who died in about 1973/4, was writing the IJA cards for the Japanese at the end. A great deal of his records seem to have been lost, as he recalls. He was a New Zealander who had served in the First Word War and was employed as a surveyor in Singapore.

John

 

Thanks John,

I have read Nelson's book, about two years ago. He was, as you say basically recording the POW movements and details for the Japanese. A very remarkable fellow indeed.

I have photographic copies of some 300 or so Rangoon Jail POW cards and there are two distinct types.

One set (the majority) with the numerals 19/3/15, these are generally the men who go on to be liberated in May 1945 or at least survive through 1942/43 and some of 1944. This is why the 19/3/15 being a date suddenly makes great sense.

The other type which for my own purposes I have called Maymyo temporary card, has very little info on the front and generally belong to Chindits who perished very quickly in the jail during the summer of 1943.

Thanks again for helping me have a light bulb moment.

Steve

 

Dear Steve,

My limited collection of photographs of WO345 cards includes some relating to POWs with prison camp numbers beginning with 1/, although the majority of numbers begin with II/ or 2/. Almost all of these describe soldiers who were presumed killed on 19th September 1944.

Curiously enough a couple of these IJA/Bureau of Record and Enquiry cards have pencil script written in the "Remarks" box at the bottom right of the face of the card with the phrase "Overland 19/3/43".

The men whose records are marked in this way were:

Andrews, William James Pte 5780722 6 Bn Royal Norfolk Reg. prison number 1/10,490
Atkins, Ernest Richard Pte 5777180 5 Bn Royal Norfolk Reg. " " 1/10,505
Batterby Frederick George Pte 5775169 5 Bn " " 2/663 and ?/787?

Another example of the work of the BRE may be at WO 367 which are books with typed and written entries with a lot of red lines, indicating deaths, which unfortunately makes the original typed lists rather difficult to read. Many have many references to "overland" and a substantial number with the addition of the date "19/3/43".

I think the date "19.3.43" in this context means the date of departure from Changi rather than date of arrival. A very long journey, when the railway was not finished.

I hope this helps.

It seems very likely that you have read the following book but I cannot resist putting in a word for the brilliant portion of autobiography of the late novelist and screenwriter George Macdonald Fraser entitled " Quartered Safe Out Here." ( Harvill 1993 etc.)

This book is superb. Beautifully written. Very readable, as are his "tales from personal experience" centering around the fictional McAuslan, the "dirtiest soldier in the world", in "The General Danced At Dawn", "The Sheik And The Dustbin" and "McAuslan In The Rough" ( Fontana paperbacks in my editions ).

John

 

Hi John,

Yes Fraser's book is one of the highlights of Burma based accounts and hilarious at times, especially when you allow yourself to hear the accents involved.

Thanks for your help in regard to the cards. Rangoon Jail is my pet project after Chindit 1. Grandad died in the jail after about 4 weeks in block 6. Of the 600 or so Allied POW's held in Rangoon, beginning with the men captured in 1942 during the retreat and ending with American airmen shot down in late 1944 or early 1945, none were sent to work on the railway.

This has always puzzled me, but this is a fact. A handful of officers were sent down to singapore for Kempai-Tai interrogation, but even here they did not work on the railway. As the 14th Army closed in on Rangoon the Japanese at Rangoon Jail collected together the fittest 400 POW's and began to march them toward Siam, but abandoned them at Pegu in late April 1945.
This was the only overland journey that relates to Rangoon and occurred one year after the date shown on their respective cards.

I have attached the two examples of JIC to the post, the first the classic Rangoon Jail card for a survivor followed by what I call the temporary card, mainly issued to men for Chindit 1943 and who perished in the jail fairly quickly.

Thanks again

Steve

 

Fascinating reading guys.

I have so far, with the help of numerous people, been able to compile the following data on my great grand-father's POW record -

Camp [Translated - Thailand] 17 8 17 [17th August 1942]
Name Hancock, William.
Nationality [Translated - ??]
Rank Lance-Corporal
Place of Capture [Translated - 15th February 1942]
Place of Origin Woodend, Notts., England
Destination of Report Mrs William Hancock, 21, Woodend, Worksop, Notts., England
No. [Translated - Thailand No.2 (Work Group 2)] 966 [POW number]
Date of Birth 1904-7-21
Unit No. 2317493 Royal Corps of Signals.
Date of Capture 17 2 15 [15th February 1942]
Occupation [translated - miner]
Remarks [translated - dead]

Other Informations.
[translated - is missing since the ship was attacked. Toyofuku Maru.]
[translated - time of shipwreck 21st September 1944 10.32 - 10.38]
[translated - point of shipwreck N 15º 01º E 120º 02º, the open sea near west north of Phillipines, off shore of Bataan]


Would you two knowledgeable posters agree this is about right so far?

I'd also love to find out what he did/where he was posted while on service in Malaya for a year before being captured - would he have been in Singapore etc...

And also, is there any way of me finding out his history while a POW? Whether he worked on the Burma-Thai railway or not?

At the moment the timeline I have produced for him has large gaps that i'd like to fill with information on what he actually did in the war.

Thanks again.

 

Hello Kivo. Having read through your entry, I see that your Grandfather and my wifes uncle were together on the Hofuko Maru. His name(CAMPBELL. A ) is also on the Singapore photo.I too tried to follow this to the end, but ground to a halt as many records were destroyed, so was unable to trace the uncles movements from time of capture ,to going down on the Hell Ship.I will follow your postings with interest as you may dig up something I have missed. Good hunting .Regards.