My great uncle: John 'Jack' Rogerson

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Emmajanewatts, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Some fantastic detective work done here by members. :)
    I do hope Emma returns to see the results.


    Lesley
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Found it, but Capt Bannerman's account starts halfway through the ambush so it doesn't mention anything relevant.
     
  3. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    I have had a look at a couple of things and have the following information.

    The 1 COBU War Diary has a similar entry to Idlers Post No. 35. Says that the information on Captain Lee and FOB 81 was taken from a reports from the Warwicks.

    I also have the following from two letters that a Lance Bombardier Hyde, FOB 81 attached 2nd Bn Royal Warwickshire Regt wrote at the end of August 1944. He was taken prisoner on the 7th June and ended up in a hospital in Rennes and remained there until the Americans captured Rennes on the 4th August 1944.

    From the first letter.
    The CO of the 2nd Warwicks decided to make a frontal attack on the woods and we were instructed to follow on by road and rendezvous at some point in the village.

    The vehicles then proceeded along the road with the adjutant’s half track leading and our half track following. At this point we were informed by the CO of the KSLI that the village had been cleared of enemy and we therefore continued with confidence.

    We entered the village, but to our surprise we met a veritable hail of fire from all sides. The adjutant’s half track was knocked out by a shell from a “Tiger” tank and we had no alternative but to bypass it and get out of range of the tank. We managed to evade the tank but the road had been mined at this point and we were unlucky in striking one.

    I was fortunate with a fractured leg but I regret to say that Capt. Lee and Rogerson one of the naval ratings sustained injuries from which they died shortly afterwards. The other two ratings were taken prisoner and marched away.

    From the second letter.
    As to their injuries - Capt Lee and Rogerson both had severe leg injuries.

    In the case of Capt. Lee his left leg was off below the knee and Rogerson’s legs were so severely blasted that they appeared to be just being held together. My description may appear callous in writing but I assure you I write with much feeling.

    Capt Lee and I were then carried into the woods adjoining the village but Rogerson had died by this time and his body was left on the road by the side of our half track.

    Capt. Lee was now being attended to by a Major Oxley of the Field Ambulance Unit attached to our brigade.

    Major Oxley informed me soon afterwards that Capt. Lee had died of his injuries. I asked him if Capt Lee had been buried and he replied no. I am unable to furnish any further information regarding Rogerson.

    Regards

    Danny

    1944  Map.jpg
     
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  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Thanks for posting that, Danny.

    Regarding the map: are water towers marked on it? I ask because one of the photos of KO'd carriers has one in the background behind a slight rise in the ground.
     
  5. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Am I alone in thinking that all this great information is providing grounds to put to the CWGC to re examine its records?
    It seems from the account given by EmmaJane that the previous family dealings with the CWGC does not reflect the way it currently operates?

    If there is a corresponding burial recovery from a location close to the road to Lebisey, and PROVIDING there is sufficient corroborating evidence from an exhumation or GRU report, then there is time for this chap to be accorded his due entitlement to a NAMED headstone in time for the 70th anniversary of his death.

    Are there any Known Unto God headstones in cemeteries close by, perhaps with partial identity such as rank or Branch of Service?

    It would have to be borne in mind that firstly it would seem that Jack was buried by the Germans, secondly thus far no precise location is available, thirdly that any recovered body may not have been able to have a precise date of death such as 7th June established and finally that Caen and its outskirts were very heavily bombed by the RAF soon afterwards, so that all signs of his burial may have been obliterated.

    I still feel it worth a final effort, it seems we have come so far towards a positive result.
     
  6. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Lesley:
    In 1944 Lébisey was a small commune to the north-east of Caen (Calvados). During the post-war reconstruction of the area the urbanised area of Caen has spread outwards. In the modern era Lébisey is now part of the commune of Hérouville-Saint-Clair. The district is not far from the modern university quarter and there are several student residences in that area.

    Some Royal Navy personnel went ashore in this sector of Normandy to send information back to the warships, whose guns were used in support of the tanks and infantry attempting to move forward. It looks to me like Jack Rogerson's role was along those lines. To get more specific information it would be best to refer to the relevant archives (as others have already suggested).
     
  7. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Danny,

    Congratulations for finding and posting confirmation of the circumstances of death.

    Kevin,

    From past experience I think that you will find that only positively identified buried bodies will be provided a Named Gravestone.

    If there was a grave found and the Body not positively identified then the headstone will read Known only to God.

    Where no grave or body is ever found, this results in a Name on a Memorial Stone(s).

    Regards
    Tom
     
  8. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    I have been away for a couple of days and just caught-up with this thread... I had a hunch based, both, on Lesley's Message # 11 and work on a previous thread, that Jack was a member of a Combined Operations Bombardment Unit (COBU); and so it proved.

    Great work by Andrew (Message # 35), Michel (Message # 39) and Danny (Message # 43); well done all.

    Danny, are you able to assist Andrew with his query at Message # 44. If there is linkage, this may help move the story further on.

    Kevin, at Message # 45 you say that it seems that Jack was buried by the Germans. What if it was French locals? Do you believe it worthwhile Emma contacting the local French Church(s), Mayor's office, Local History Society, etc., concerning this period of Lebisey's history, as there may be a mention of or lead in respect of his burial?

    Well done WW2Talk!!!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  9. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Here is some information of Capt. Jack Lee, who died as a consequence of injuries received in the same incident as Jack Rogerson.

    LEE, JACK
    Rank: Captain
    Service No: 177616
    Date of Death: 07/06/1944
    Age: 31
    Regiment/Service: Royal Artillery: 14 Medium Regt.
    Panel Reference: Panel 11, Column 1.M
    Memorial: BAYEUX MEMORIAL
    Additional Information: Son of William Arthur and Edith Mary Lee; husband of Olive Grace Lee, of St. Helens, Lancashire.

    And here, a previous thread on Capt. Jack Lee: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/45130-captain-jack-lee-14-medium-regt-ra-d-day1/ There is a photograph of him in the first Message therein.

    It appears Capt. Lee also has no known grave, albeit he was in British hands when he died. Forum member 'Emanuel1940' may have gained further information in this respect... I will PM him and ask him to look in on this thread!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
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  10. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    If the "Captain Lee" is Captain Jack Lee, R.A. (died 07/06/1944) then he also has no known grave and is commemorated on the Bayeux Memorial.

    The only Allied casualty called "Rogerson" I could see on the CWGC website that would be a close match to the information was a Thomas Rogerson, 1st S. Lancs. (died 06/06/1944) who is buried in Hermanville War Cemetery.

    Unless anyone else has other information about these two?
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Did you see post #3 on this thread ?
     
  12. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Yes. From the letter quoted in # 43 I was taking it there were two Army deaths about the same time as the Naval Jack Rogerson (i.e. Captain Lee and another Rogerson). If the burial place of those killed at the same time could be established, it might indicate the place of burial for Jack Rogerson. However, if Captain Lee and any others killed on the same day were unidentified the deductions are not going to lead to a result.
     
  13. Emanuel1940

    Emanuel1940 Member

    Captain Jack Lee attended Emanuel School in Battersea. I would be most interested in seeing the original letters that Danny transcribed!

    I am afraid I know nothing else apart from what appeared on an earlier thread.

    I will be remembering all Emanuel boys, including Jack Lee, who served in both world wars in a free public exhibition between 7-10 November 2014.

    I would like to be able to find a photo of Jack Lee in uniform, if anyone finds one please do let me know, you can contact me on my blog http://emanuelschoolatwar.wordpress.com/contact/

    Thank you.
     

    Attached Files:

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  14. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hello Idler,
    A quick line. No water towers are marked on this map. Attached is another version of this map and a map that was dated 26th June 1944.

    I will carry on looking through the bits and pieces I have and see if I have any other large scale maps. I know there are one or two covering Caen but cannot remember if they cover this area as well.

    Regards

    Danny

    Lebisey  2  DSCF5895  ed.jpg Lebisey 1.jpg
     
  15. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Seconded Lesley, from acorns and all that. :)
     
  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Found it on a 1955 airphoto from IGN:

    Lebisey 1955.jpg

    What's been buggering me up is that DannyM's sketch map is upside down. I think the '7 stationary vehs' in the top right corner of the map may be one of the 2 Warwicks' vehicle groups that's gone through the village to the southwest and got clobbered. I'll try and compare it to the KO'd carriers photo tomorrow.
     
  17. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    idler, in DannyM's second sketch map which seems to date to about 27 June '44, just to the left of that red outlined box is the notation "can see beaches from here" which could be where the 2 Warwicks vehicles were heading.... that fits with the "vehicles on road, 1 off" (Jack's carrier?) on the road leading southwest towards that OP site...
     
  18. idler

    idler GeneralList

    OK, photos from Michael Wittmann und die Tiger der Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler where they are captioned as victims of Villers-Bocage:

    Carriers 2.jpg

    The prominent 67 serial means it's not part of an armoured division. In an inf div, it would be the senior battalion in the junior brigade, a perfect match for 2 R Warwicks in 185 Bde of 3 Inf Div! Also note the 3" Mortar baseplate.

    Carriers 1.jpg

    On the originals, an eye of faith can make out a faint triangular blob on the nearside mudguard - 3 Div. The leading carrier has a name over the driver's plate, looks like ..ATEAU. 1 R Warwicks fought at Le Cateau in the Great War so perhaps 2nd Bn borrowed their battle honour?
    The middle carrier still had it's wading plates in place, which suggests the action was in the earliest stages of the campaign.
    In the lower picture, there could be further vehicles behind the rear carrier. There's always a hope that the picture's been cropped a bit smaller than the negative so there may be a little bit more information to discover.
    Finally, the much-talked-about water tower is visible to the right rear of the carriers, just where it ought to be if the '7 vehs on road' were heading away from the Lebisey.

    The disappointing thing is that 7 or 8 vehicles really only accounts for the Mortar Pl. We know that at least elements of A/Tk Pl and Bn HQ were lost as well, but there are no clues as to where.
     
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  19. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello Andrew,

    Can you discern anything from the number '1035' painted on the bulkhead (behind the gunner's space) of the Carrier in the foreground of the third photograph?

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  20. Emanuel1940

    Emanuel1940 Member

    A little more on Jack Lee's School career.

    Attended Emanuel between 1924-1930. Prefect of the School. Captain of Clyde House; Sub Editor School Magazine, The Portcullis; 1st XV., colours; 1929: 1st VIII., Colours 1929; Public Schools Athletics Team, Half-Colours, 1930. Sergeant O.T.C., War Office Certificate A, March 1929; General Schools Certificate; Modern Sixth.

    Also attached is an image of Lee jumping for the ball at an Emanuel O.T.C. Camp 1928.
     

    Attached Files:

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