Mystery One Magazine SMG? Arnhem usage?

Ok guys, I was perplexed by this on another forum..

" but a specific weapon designed to fire 1 magazine and then to be disgarded , it was an initial assult weapon issued before the drop." "basicly made out pressed "Tin" as he described it"

Chap says it was US manufactured and to be discarded after firing its magasine after use as an initial assualt weapon. Not larger then 14 inches (he has removed some information) and was told this by an Arnhem vet. And is adamant its not a modified Sten/MkIV sten or anything similar.

Is this a case of confused memories, total inaccuracy, or just fabrication? Did something like that ever exist? On a simple logical level making a whole weapon with a seperate magazine as a one shot assault weapon seems somewhat crazy!

 

For those of you who have complained about cheap, shoddily manufactured goods from Asia...................Well, it looks like we started it!

 

The Liberator fired single shots, the case then needed to be manually ejected and a new cartridge manually inserted into the breech - does not sound like a magazine weapon.

 

Could be the Welgun. It was an automatic, used the sten magazine, and had a fold over stock.

John

 

The Welgun was well made and of British manufacture, a few were deployed operationally by SOE though large scale manufacture was never undertaken, the other SMG used quite extensivelly by SOE/OSS was the double magazined Marlin UD-M42- from the orginal posting the weapon sought is possibly a variant of the M3 'Greasegun' SMG.

 

The only known photo of the norm gun ?

 

the other SMG used quite extensivelly by SOE/OSS was the double magazined Marlin UD-M42


IIRC they ended up with the one large trial batch of Marlins because they were

1/ there, and

2/ noone would give the spooks...sorry, "unconventional warfare people"!....much of anything else at the time!

The Kriepe kidnap team had Marlins; IIRC they left them on Crete, giving a couple to Cretan kapitans as goodwill presents.

 

"Since my last posting I have verified with Dennis that he did have this weapon,and has he explained to me it was used solely as an initial assult weapon , they held it across their chest it fired 20 rounds and then was disgarded, and the best way he could describe it was ,just like pressed tin about 14" long ,and it was nicknamed the "Woolys" gun , 10 Shillings to make."

Ok, that stinks to me of being a Sten gun, and remember this is allegedly a British one off assault SMG for use at Arnhem, fire one mag then throw away. But chap is adamant that it ain't a Sten (Wooly's reference here is what throws me more...)

That bit more info any use? Thus far, very interesting but nothing quite fits the bill - unless it WAS a Sten and just a bit of confusion there or sommat.

 

Possibly a trial of Mk4a or Mk 4B Sten?

 

Could it be one of these?

 

That was one theory, but I believe that they were prototype only weapons and never trialled.

 

Maybe something in WO 208/1258A
WO 208/1258B
WO 203/91
WO 203/42

Will have a peek when I'm at Kew !
The other source might be the Donnington Collection of Small arms or the REME Museum at Arborfield which both have good weapons collections

 

The Arnhem link makes me think of the Patchett SMG (a derivation of the sten) which, according to many reports, was issued to the South Staffords for use at Arnhem. However my Father who was in the Staffords had never heard of it. There is one of these weapons on display at Duxford.

John

 

I've been looking round the Net since reading that last...there's quite a lot of discussion on this; while there are sources say the South Staffs were issued it BEFORE Arnhem....many people have indeed taken this to mean they had them AT Arnhem But there are equally many sources and locations that seem to state the South Staffs handed them back to stores before Arnhem!

Apparently there does exist offline one photograph of a South Staffs squaddie at MARKET GARDEN carrying something that at a distance could be either a Sten or a Patchett! Obviously there has been some debate over this item...

And bleedin' Osprey hasn't helped anything!

 

On a more serious note....in his "The Guns of Dagenham", Peter Laidler quotes Tommy Fitch, an Arnhem survivor and former curator of the Airborne Forces Museum, told him that six were used at Arnhem; Laidler 's own research through the records revealed that four guns were sent to the Airborne Forces Development Centre and only one can now be accounted for. It would appear that three guns (067, 070, and 072) could have been the guns that went, and never returned. The fourth gun (062) is now in the Pattern Room collection. However, there is also some hint that the four in question were actually back at Patchett's at the time of MARKET GARDEN, getting modified.

There does seem to be a "geometric progression" issue with the Patchett legend - somewhere along the line the numbers of trialling Patchetts in the Arnhem timeframe seems to have risen from 4 to 100!

 

Just to add a little spice to the discussion it is possible the Jed team Claude at Market Garden may have been equiped with either the M1AI Carbine or the Marlin UDT SMG - it was a matter of choice which weapon they took along in addition to their pistol usually a Colt .45 or a Browning P.35

 

This thread is extremely enjoyable to read, as I am again learning about weapons that I had not heard of before.

Regards
Tom