National Archives - Kew Tips?

Discussion in 'Research Material' started by von Poop, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I really can't see what you're getting at. This is far too simplistic. Firstly it assumes the researcher lives next door to Kew. It ignores the time and travel costs getting there and time and costs of downloading, sorting and despatching the information.
    Secondly it ignores the client's costs to achieve the same result. For me to spend a day a Kew would involve travel and food costs of about GBP200 plus two nights accommodation. I would be lucky if I achieved a copying rate of 500 a day let alone 5000.
    I am very grateful that there are people like Andy (Drew) prepared to copy documents for me and find charges of 10p or so a page very reasonable.
    It takes me less than 5 min to walk to the pub.

    Tim
     
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  2. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    It would definitively benefit to everyone, starting with the TNA administration itself, if the mass of documents privately copied would be pooled and made available to all.

    This kind of starts to exist for German documents, with more than 5 millions pages available and a fairly large community.
     
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  3. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Oh, did not mean anything special. Mine was just a back of the envelopped calculation of the cost.

    And you're right, it's just a rough estimate. It definitively assumes the researcher lives in the greater London area and does not pay for extra lodging when visiting Kew. Then the time & cost in getting to Kew are not different from having any kind of job in London. Sorting the information is very quick compared to making copies, unless the researcher adds watermarks or some kind of protection (but why charge the customer for that?). Dispatching data, if electronically does not require additional time as it can be done at night, or even at Kew while copying other stuff. And If by post, the researcher already adds a shipping cost.

    Also not factored in is the opportunity for repeated sales. Once the researcher has a copy, there is a probability someone else wants it, leading to multiple sales. This would actually decrease the cost :)

    Note how much it costs to get documents from NARA. AFAIR, a digital copy of a microfilm (typically 1200 pages) is USD 120. That's the price when going through the official chanel. There is one private researcher who quotes the same service USD 80, ie USD 0,067/page or GDP 0,06/page. That's a x3 markup vs. cost.
     
  4. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Nor am I particularly enamoured with TNA getting subscription sites such as FMP to do their work for them. Being particularly interested in the Far East the efforts of TNA pale into insignificance with the amount of information freely available online from the Dutch and Australian archives.

    Tim
     
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  5. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Have to agree here. I live overseas.

    The couple of days every eighteen months I could theoretically spend at Kew would be better spent with friends and relatives. Plus, I don't know the system at Kew and have no expertise at photogaphy, so I'd likely be massively less productive.

    And it isn't just the clicks of the camera you're paying for. There's a share of the hideously early starts, the petrol, the postage and a premium to avoid the tedium.

    Of course, I wish it were cheaper--because if it were I could afford to order more!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  6. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Charley, one can't choose one's relatives...but if your friends aren't interested in a day at Kew then perhaps you need to review your acquaintances ? :rolleyes:
     
  7. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I've been working on that!

    I've already set a few of them on the paths of investigating their relatives' war service.

    I must confess, it's often one of those situations where you're in the kitchen with your old mate and a beer in hand while he's cutting up food for the barbecue or something, and then either my or his Missus walks in, hears a couple of phrases like 'mortar platoon', 'regimental aid post' or 'Jungle Carbine' and gives you both a dirty look that says 'are you two really going to spoil the afternoon for everybody?'

    It's clear that such topics are best reserved for the big Friday night out at the pub. And then you can discuss them all over again next time with no clear recollection of what was said the first time around!
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  8. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Yes, that's precisely it. The value of a researcher doing the job on your behalf is the time & effort it saves (the opportunity cost, if you want).

    That's especially true for someone who only wants a limited number of copies. Going to Kew from overseas just to copy a single folder is naturally a bad investments of time and money. (But then... isn't there a nice fellow on this forum or elsewhere willing to make this particular copy free of charge?)

    However, when you are interested in a fairly large amount of documents, the private researcher's price does not always make it the most attractive option.
     
  9. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Just to stick up for Independent researchers for a second... as it is my livelihood.

    The 9p a page I charge has to pay for my travel (5 hours a day at least) including wear and tear of vehicle; camera (on my third professional camera in 6 years); pension; holiday and sick days; income tax; web hosting; marketing; bad payers and outright cheats; and most of all advertising and administration. For every day I'm at Kew I spend at least another day on admin and getting new work.

    My page count per day varies hugely, it can drop to 3 pages an hour, i.e. three different files with only a single page in each. But three files an hour with 20 or 30 pages in them is very normal.

    I pride myself that the quality of the images taken are excellent within the limitations of the working environment and that I don't miss anything. (I worked professionally in the photographic and digital imaging industry for many years and have over 30 years experience researching at the National Archives)

    The one thing I can assure you is I'm certainly not getting rich doing this. Plus it is also taking a physical toll with continuous neck pain and headaches.

    None of that really matters at the end of the day. The point is I charge 9p a page based on my costs. TNA charge over £1.00 per page based on their costs. If you can get there yourself that's great, if you can't then at least there are other options available other than TNAs service.

    Lee
    www.arcre.com
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  10. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    .

    I've never used Lee (at 9 pence ) a page, but I've used Andy at (10 pence) a page. Like Charley, I've purchased a few from Andy, & can say the quality of his photo's is top notch. Lee's is no doubt of the same quality. I reside in the UK, & could not be bothered to do a 500 mile round trip . More to the point, I've got better things to be doing with the limited spare time at the weekend. That is after a long week of being away from home. (Its news to me that there is nice fellow on this forum, or elsewhere who is willing to make this particular service for free of charge?). Whats his name? I've exchanged a few diaries with different members over the years. Its only the way that you will get them for free..:D. Keep going with the cheap service chaps. My nearest pub is across the road from my house.

    Regards,
    Stu.
     
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  11. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Hello,

    Thanks for the testomonies and the transparency. Yes: it's not like being a private researcher is the road to fortune, I don't think anyone ever thought that. Same goes with writing history...

    That you spend 1 day in sales / administration for each day at Kew kinds of confirm the hypothesis the service is primarily interesting for those who want a small number of pages/folders.

    I saw some documents from the 2 professional researcher present here, and also for the one at NARA: there is no doubt quality of images is top notch.
     
  12. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    For German documents, I have shared documents with more than 100 people over the last 2-3 years. Naturally, this built a very large pool of easy to reach archives. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned more than 5 millions pages. The way is works is: "just ask and you get it".

    I haven't seen the equivalent for TNA documents but I don't see why it should not happen. We could just start the pump and get to the same situation.

    As for "nice fellow willing to make this service for free of charge", I am an example. I live in Paris and I am familiar with French archives: several people have asked me to copy documents for their research which I have done it with pleasure, and for free. Last time I went to Kew I also copied files unrelated to my research for the sole purpose of sending them to a far away contact.
     
  13. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I suspect TNA might have something to say on that. Our archives aren't termed public domain in the do-what-you-like-with-it sense. Instead the crown copyright is 'waived' so we can only do defined things with our history until they either change their minds or get a better offer from the genealogy big boys.
     
  14. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Well, that would first be a threat to private researchers who re-sell documents they make a private copy of, wouldn't it?

    I have sometimes heard this type of argument in the German documents community. Rather than genuine concern on copyright or on welfare of the archives administration, it's sometimes motivated by fear the "value" of private copies could decrease.

    More seriously, there is no way the sum of private copies, even if pooled and offered for free, will ever compared with what's on file at TNA. And the number of private copies will never compare to the sum of additional documents they receive from British administrations every year :)

    Another benefit of pooling documents is it focuses spend and time on whatever is not there already. You get fewer spend on re-ordering the same documents over and over. It's more efficient for everyone.
     
  15. Incredibledisc

    Incredibledisc Well-Known Member

    I’ve never been to Kew but Drew has copied a number of files for me which I have subsequently converted to pdf (purely due to file size constraints) and uploaded here for free.
     
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  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Shhh... Don't draw attention to the 'loophole' otherwise Kew will end up like some other archives where it's even harder to get stuff out, let alone get stuff out economically.

    At the end of the day, Lee and Andy offer a well-received service and we can all decide individually whether we want to use them or not. It's a bit unfair to knock them when they are a full order of magnitude cheaper than the public sector alternative.
     
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  17. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Copied for me too ( and most grateful for the effort dealing with the jobsworths who inhabit these places) they know what they are doing and to be fair if I had problems with my camera in situ I would take a hammer to it (its a coping thing).

    And whenever a member on here asks a question about diaries and the like a forum member always pops up with either the diary or the diary catalogue number and it always ends well.

    Patient but not that patient
    Clive
     
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  18. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    So, why not start this document pooling?
     
  19. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    I think it was Postman Pat who once said "seek and you will find."
     
  20. Mori

    Mori Active Member

    Yes. So why not build a finding aid of what people have a copy of?

    I attach what it looks like for German documents (just NARA rolls, not even with the BAMA/GDIR stuff).
     

    Attached Files:

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