New member seeking info on Sospan

Hello to all,
first and foremost to all the veterans on this forum and elsewhere, I wish to say thank you for your sacrifices on behalf of myself, my children and the generations that follow you.
My father, Arthur John Bassett (of Llwynhendy,Llanelli), was a private in the 4th Battalion of the Welsh regiment. He had not long turned 18 years old when he arrived in Normandy via Herne Bay. His visit to France was short lived as he was injured by shrapnel from a shell from a tank I believe. His sargeant was killed standing but a few feet away.
Dad never spoke little of the war but I had heard some things from his older brothers who are also now passed on as did my brave father four years ago. I have done some research and found some information about where my father was when he was injured. His sargent is buried at one of the Normandy cemeteries, I had found a picture of his headstone and the date on it. The date gives me an idea of where the regiment was at that time. I do not know how accurate the date on the gravestone might reflect the actual day that he fell in battle. I was hoping maybe to trace the family of his sgt as my Dad had spoken very fondly of him and said the sgt had been more of a father to him in that short time than had been his father.
Dad had been sent to Scotland to recuperate and when fit enough for duty was transferred to the 2nd Welch Battalion in Burma. He never ever spoke about Burma save how cruel the Japanese soldiers were. He did say how he stopped in Egypt on the way out there and was almost charged AWOL when he and a friend went off to see the pyramids. Apparently, they were almost killed in their tent at night by local robbers!
Anyway, I found the 53rd div documents via google on this forum and want to continue some of my notes that I have documented. The sgt's grave was marked on the 10th August 1944 so I want to gather info around that period. I have read several books including some quite detailed German army accounts. I shall find the appropriate subforum to post my notes and ask questions.
As for myself I am now 54 years old and thanks to many never had to suffer through wartime. I have had a good life and moved from Wales to Florida where I have a wonderful family. I have my father's service medals to serve as a reminder. God bless you all

 

Welcome Welshgator

have you applied for his service records
Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Service Records | Making a Request for Information held on the Personnel Records of Deceased Service Personnel

drop forum member Swiper (Resident Sospan) a message he might be able to add further info
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/members/swiper.html
regards
Clive

 

Welcome to the forum Welshgator.

This is the only 4th Bn Welch Regiment recorded death close to the 10 August 1944 and is also a Serjeant; courtessy of Geoff's search engine.

THOMAS, DAVID PENDRY
Rank: Serjeant
Service No: 3954507
Date of Death: 08/08/1944
Age:43
Regiment/Service: Welch Regiment 4th Bn.
Grave Reference: II. J. 1.
Cemetery: BAYEUX WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of David John and Mary Thomas, of Llanelly, Carmarthenshire; husband of Elizabeth Thomas, of Llanelly.

Best,

Steve.

 

Thank you. Yes that is Sgt Thomas. I haven't looked up my father's service records. Do I use the links just posted above?

 

Thank you. Yes that is Sgt Thomas. I haven't looked up my father's service records. Do I use the links just posted above?

Hello Welshgator,

The first link that Clive posted will take you to the application you need to make, usually £30. Make sure you ask for the FULL service records. It may take over 8 months to get a response, they have a lot of applications to deal with.

Good luck!

Steve.

 

Thanks, I'll get on it. My Mom may be able to request it easier than I can from here.

 

Thanks all.
I'll throw in a quick question before I forget. My Dad referred to the platoon or brigade or ? as the Dagger platoon or Dagger regiment or Dagger ? Anyone have any ideas on what he was referring to?

 

Never mind - I found it - it's the moniker given to the 19th Infantry Division where my Dad was transferred to the 2nd Welch Battalion. I'm getting good at the search thing I guess.

 

19th Infantry Division (India)


Major General Thomas Wynford Rees was appointed to command the division in late 1942. It was committed to the Burma front in November 1944. As part of Indian XXXIII Corps, it played the major role in the capture of Mandalay. Transferred to Indian IV Corps, it guarded the British Fourteenth Army's line of communication and mounted an offensive towards Mawchi, in the Shan States.

Its successes were due to its fitness and high morale. Not having been stationed in the unhealthy mountains on the Indian / Burmese border in 1943, nor fought during the battles in 1944, it had a high proportion of pre-war regulars among its officers and senior NCO's.

The division was occasionally referred to as the "Dagger Division", from its divisional sign, which was a hand thrusting a dagger overhand, in yellow on a red background.


Order of Battle March 1, 1945


General Officer commanding: Major General Thomas Wynford Rees
Commander, Royal Artillery: Brigadier John Alexander MacDonald
Chief of Staff (GSO1): Lieutenant Colonel John Masters

Indian 62nd Infantry Brigade (Brigadier James Ronald Morris)
2nd Bn Welch Regiment
3rd Bn 6th Rajputana Rifles
4th Bn 9th Gurkha Rifles

+ Indian 64th Infantry Brigade & Indian 98th Infantry Brigade


(PS - you might recognise the name of the GSO1 - he wrote novels post-war and also an account of his service in Burma - "The Road Past Mandalay")

 

The 19th Indian Division - now famous as the Dagger Division - had its baptism of fire in the advance across the Chindwin in November, 1944. Within seven weeks the Division had marched 400 miles and fought 18 battles, against elements of three different Japanese divisions.

While one Brigade Group, on pack basis, forced back Jap rearguards through some of the most difficult hills and jungles in the world, the rest of the Division moved further North by a rough mountain road hewn by the enemy through these mountains.

The enemy was surprised and givenno time to concentrate or put any serious demolition scheme into execution. Only air supply and the marching fitness of the troops made possible the speed and the success of the operations: and, before December, 19 Div poured into the North Burma Plain and joined hands with 36 -Div, which had come down the Railway Corridor from the North. The Enemy had thus been driven out of Northern Burma.

Now 19 Div moved down the Rai1way Corridor and the North Burma Plain, and by Christmas had captured the Kawlin-Wuntho airfields. These were soon repaired enough to land light aircraft for evacuating casualties and then large transport aircraft carrying ammunition and supplies.

At Leiktu, Kin-U, and Sadwingyi, particularly, hard actions were fought until, with 2 Div, we drove the Enemy out of Shwebo and mauled the retreating enemy.

At the same time, the Division had established itself into two areas on the East bank of the Irrawaddy - Thabeikkyin in the North, and Kyaukmyaung in the South opposite Shwebu.

The drive from the Chindwin to the Irrawaddy had been hard and far and the morale of the Daggers washigh as they faced the task of forcing another crossing of the broad river Irrawaddy.

On 14 Jan, at night, the crossing was made, and the build-up followed rapidly. Infantry, gunners, sappers, and HQs - all were involved and the fierce fighting for the Bridgeheads was on.

The RAF gave decisive support, and the Divisional Commander considered our lodgement firm and started to cross the hulk of the Division over, including tanks, which now joined the Division for the first time, ready for the advance on Mandalay. The Bridgehead was extended along the river to Singu and deep into the plain to the East.

The enemy chose to hold on to the Gawuntaung ridge and kept the bulk of his troops there in the East, covering the main road to Mandalay.

One of our brigades, with the minimum of guns and a few light tanks, fought grimly there in extreme heat. The point of the Dagger, with full weight of guns and tanks behind it, struck in the West down a little used track hugging the Irrawaddy.

The great Pinlein hill-feature was passed. Chaungmagyi Chaung crossed at an unguarded bullock-cart ford, and our leading brigade was fighting in the streets of Madaya, having forestalled the Jap main body.

Meanwhile, our Mobile Force, named Stiletto, (Tanks. Infantry and Guns) was working its way rapidly southwards along the East bank of the Irrawaddy by tracks the Jap had never dreamed would be used.

And so at dawn on 8 March 45, the leading British troops entered the Northern corner of Mandalay. Down the two approaches from the North 19 Div was in full cry and by the afternoon had joined Stiletto, nowfighting hard.

The seizure of Mandalay Hill was achieved by a brilliantly executed night movewhich got round the flank; a precipitous climb in the dark and a dashing assault in the grey dawn. The key to Mandalay was ours.

Below the hill lay Fort Dufferin - with old fashioned 25ft high walls, very thick, and a 75ft moat. A gallant probing attack and stout patrolling showed the enemy was determined to hold on and had ample MGs covering the approaches.

On 20 March 45, two men, bearing a Union Jack and a white flag were seen in the Fort. They were Anglo-Burman refugee prisoners. The Enemy had fled and the whole of Mandalay and its Fort were once more in the hands of the British.

Meanwhile, even before Madaya, one brigade has moved Eastward, leaving its MT behind and taking mountain guns. Moving very fast, much by night and travelling far to the south-east by jungle hill tracks it suddenly appeared in Maymyo completely surprising the enemy who fled. We caught most of their MT and inflicted many casualties in a model night ambush.

Infantry, gunners, sappers, tanks, and the other Services had all played their part. Worcesters, Welch. Royal Berkshires, Rajputana Rifles. Frontier Force Regiment, Baluchis, 15 Punjab Regt. Gurkhas, the Assam Regiment, RA and Indian Artillery. Madras and Bombay Sappers. Tanks of the 150 RAC (Y and L) and Indian Light Cavalry. After Mandalay there was no rest for them, and left North of the Myitnge River they moved South, joining 4 Corps for the Rangoon operations.

And further North, 19 Div troops were pushing on towards Kalaw, in determined fighting in some of the thickest jungle in Burma they drove back the Japanese 15 Div.

 

Many thanks Dave. I have read much of Normandy but very little of Burma. Seems very little on google about the 2nd Welch Bn.

 

Long, rambling email follows - I hope it makes sense (I think that it is pretty much correct):

The principal British fighting formation in Burma was Fourteenth Army which consisted of a couple of smaller formations (Indian XXXIII Corps / Indian IV Corps).

Each Corps was made up of combat units (Divisions) - such as the 19th Indian Infantry Division – and each Division consisted of three brigades (Indian 62nd Infantry Brigade, Indian 64th Infantry Brigade & Indian 98th Infantry Brigade in the case of 19ID) plus supporting units (artillery, engineers, armour, medical etc.

Within a Brigade were three Battalions – each of them part of a bigger regiment which was deployed to various theatres of the war, as you know the Welch Regiment had its 4th Battalion fighting on one side of the world and the 2nd were in Burma

Then each Battalion would have been further broken down to company, platoon and section components.


The confusing thing is that depending on operational requirements Battalions were moved between Brigades, Brigades were moved between Divisions & Divisions were moved between Corps (and in situations like Western Europe Corps were moved between Armies and Armies were moved between Army Groups).


The official history of operations (Operations in Burma from 12th November 1944 to 15th August 1945 by Lieutenant General Sir Oliver Leese) mainly seemed to concentrate on operations at brigade level

For the time period that your Dad was in Burma with the 2nd Battalion of the Welch Regiment they were part of the Indian 62nd Infantry Brigade within 19th Indian Infantry Division.

So if you know where the 62nd Brigade was then you know where the 2nd Welch were and by default where you dad was………


I have the history of operations (Operations in Burma from 12th November 1944 etc) saved as a word document and the info is presented as:

Para 38. 19 Indian Division (Major-General T. W. Rees) advanced from the Sittaung bridgehead, through Wuntho. 62 Brigade, advancing rapidly from the bridgehead, occupied Pinlebu on the 17th December after overcoming some opposition along the escarpment nine miles west-south-west of Pinlebu. Wuntho, on the Myitkyina-Mandalay railway, was reached on the 19th, and Kawlin on the 20th December.

 

Welcome to the forum. There is very little about 2nd Welch in Burma on the net. They were mentioned on several places, like here for example (see Chapters 2 and 3):

Worcestershire Regiment (29th/36th of Foot)

but very briefly and without much details. There are several good books about Burma campaign but only book I'm aware that 2nd Welch was mentioned more then was "A Signal Honour" by Painter. Painter was a signal officer in 19th Indian Division during 1945 and was attached to 62nd Indian Brigade when this was sent to capture Maymyo and that's way the Brigade didn't took part in the battle for Mandalay. Best way should be to try to obtain war diaries of the unit. Good luck with your research.

 

Hi
I have just read your piece about your dad,my grandfather was part of the 1/4 th Welch b company Llanelli branch which where part time TA's,I assume your dad was part of this also.
They went to Ireland to train ready for the d day landings,my grandad met my Gran there and got married after 6 weeks by a reverend love,that was his name they traveled to herne bay to cross into Normandy,grandad never spoke much about the war,what he did say is his battalion took refuge from mortar shells in a barn/farm and hid behind some cows which took the full front blast from a shell,the cows died while the soldiers survived.
Another thing is the captain was a man called Peter Ryding (English) it is believed or I have been told they battalion where fighting for hill 112 hatchet hill when Peter ryding went with a few Bren gun carriers to look at what was going on,not really sure but they like others never returned there is talk Peter ryding was taken to a German hospital ??? But it's stated he was killed in action,I know this as I spoke to a lady who was a decended of Peter ryding iam no longer in contact as I lost the contact information.
I don't know a lot of grandads doings throughout the war but I did ask my Gran while she was alive and she never new much either,grandad signed up in 1939.
Regards Andrew Davies / Llanelli born and bred

 

Andrew, do you mean 1/5th Welch or 4 Welch? The latter was drawn from Llanelli.

Peter Ryding is still recorded as one of the missing, oddly enough his Patrol ran into heavy resistance where he was hit attempting to rescue the Sergeant from the lead Carrier. The full account of this action appears in Jocks, Dragons and Sospans.

Do you have any other letters/photographs etc of his service?

 

4th Welch b company
No I don't have anything from my grandad but my father has not sure what but I will have a chat with him to see what he has,there was a piece on Llanelli star about 15 years ago about Peter ryding a relative wanted to know anything about where he died etc I lost the contact info when I moved,grandad was a mortar carrier and carried the bugle,when grandad came home years after my dad took the bugle out and some kid stole it off him,I have his cap badge which I cherish and there is a family photo of him dressed in his full uniform.
And iam sure there is a group photo but that is ripped and piece missing if I remember correctly,don't know much about granddads life during the war as he never spoke about it.what I know he served in France Belgium and Holland that's what he told me.i remember that if he ever saw a knife with jam on it he would just pick it up and throw it into the sink,and my dad grew up with this aswel,grandad died in 1984 taking his memories nightmares to his grave.iam also in the process of applying for his service medals as he never recived them or as my Gran said prob he refused them,also I will be applying for his service records.

 

Here's the day your man landed in France from the Battalions Diary


And from the same diary here's the day Sgt Thomas was killed, I'm wondering if he died of wounds?

 

Peter Ryding joined the battalion on 22nd June 1942 and became the Carrier Commander on 12th August 1943.

 

Captain Peter Ryding has no known grave

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2628414/RYDING,%20PETER%20ANTONY

From the battalions war diary