New Zealand Divisional Cavalry - NZ Armoured Corps?

Discussion in 'New Zealand' started by Skip, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Hello all,

    Does anyone know if the NZ Divisional Cavalry Regiment was absorbed into the wartime NZ Armoured Corps and if so what the date was?

    Any help greatly appreciated,

    Cheers

    Skip
     
  2. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

  3. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Cheers Andy - do you know if everyone within 4th NZ Armoured Bde was cap-badged NZAC?
     
  4. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I'm not completely sure Skip, but I believe they had the standard 2NZEF cap badge on their caps, not sure if they were meant to have the NZAC cap badge officially though.
     
  5. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Cheers Andy - I just have some service records of Div Cav men that then transferred to the NZAC and wondered whether it was like lots of Brit tank men that were compulsory transferred to the RAC when that corps was formed ...
     
  6. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I wonder if they were transferred when the Armoured Brigade was formed, as a base of talent so to say?
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    We were never completely agreed on whether the KIWIs were an Infantry or Armoured Division - they listed an Armoured Bde and so were

    TECHNICALLY an Armoured Div ..with two or more Infantry Bdes - but never looked like one…

    Cheers
     
  8. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I think the NZ Div was unique in this regard, as you say technically an armoured division, but widely considered as an "infantry" division with an armoured brigade. (Tom, please correct me if I am wrong, I'm not too schooled up on orders of battle).
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Andy -
    we had a similar task in going to reinforce the Torch landings inasmuch as we were ( A Churchill Tank bde )within the 0B of 4th

    Infantry division - didn't work then and by December '43 we became an Independent Brigade and 4th became a fully fledged Infantry

    Division - in Italy we were then an Assault bde in SUPPORT of the 1st Cdn Assault Division - that worked much better…

    Cheers
     
  10. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    Interesting, thanks for that Tom. In your opinion why do you think your unit worked better as an independent brigade, rather than organic to a division?
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Andy

    There was a lack of understanding as to what Tanks could actually do so we were being asked to do what Infantrymen THOUGHT we could do - as an independent

    we could advise more than be dictated to - plus there is a great deal of difference in the assault and pursuit actions of Tanks - the assault Tanks break defence

    lines for the Infantry to pour through - pursuit Tanks tend to tear through the defence line holes by artillery followed by the infantry - usually motorized -

    all that changed by the end of the war as so called "Battle" Tanks came on the scene and every Tank unit became "Armoured"

    Cheers
     
  12. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    That all makes sense Tom. Its never easy to live up to unrealistic expectations!

    If I understand correctly the NZ Div developed an organic armoured brigade, given some of the problems in North Africa, it was seen to be better to have a armoured unit that was familiar with the Div rather than a unit that was assigned and unfamiliar with how the Div operated. Does that make sense to you?
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Andy

    that should have been the case for everyone BUT - 21st and 25th Tank bdes worked tremendously well with 1 st Canadian Division

    and that 1st Cdn Ab worked very well with both Indian and British Divisions- perhaps the KIWI's got it wrong as their AB never

    seemed to hit the high spots - so they were looked on as an Infantry division - even when we were with 4th Div - it was known as
    a " mixed " div.

    Cheers
     
  14. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Just to confuse matters ... I've just noticed that one member of the Divisional Cavalry Regiment who died whilst a POW, i.e. not having transferred to anything else, has 'Divisional Cavalry Regiment, NZ Armoured Corps' on his headstone ...
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Skip

    Quite rightly - as he should…

    Cheers
     
  16. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I think I might have put you along a dodgy path Skip. I've got my Brigades and Corps mixed up! Going by what you have found and Tom's knowledge, Div Cav were more than likely in the NZ armoured corps, but not the armoured brigade. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  17. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    That's OK Andy - I'd still like to find concrete proof, i.e. an official file that records the date (if any) on which the Div Cav were absorbed ...
     
  18. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Regarding the New Zealand Division as an Armoured Division, the Armoured Divisions in Italy usually operated with one Armoured Brigade and two Infantry Brigades during various times. This was true of the 1st and 6th British Armoured Divisions as well as the 5th Canadian Armoured Division. I believe the unique terrain in Italy made this somewhat of a necessity.
     

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