Non Combatant Corps

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Paul Reed, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Thanks to Geoff's WSE :poppy:

    001 BATTY LA 97007877 - 04/10/1947 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    002 BRAY DE 97003170 - 03/05/1941 - - 04/05/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    003 BRISTOW HK 97001959 ATTD 16/03/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    004 CONEY K 97001976 - 03/05/1941 - - 04/05/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    005 COWELL J 97006658 - 16/11/1944 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    006 DANHER JT 97003629 - 21/03/1945 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    007 FORSTER A 97001908 - 20/07/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    008 GILMOUR JJ 97001643 NON COMBATANT CORPS 25/04/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    009 GOLDBERG S 97002376 - 06/01/1946 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    010 GREAVES H 97002144 - 11/01/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    011 GREEN J 97005685 - 13/03/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    012 HARDEN PJ 97003963 - 06/04/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    013 HOGAN EH 97003031 - 31/12/1940 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    014 JONES B 97003127 - 11/02/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    015 LITTELL GA 97004022 - 13/09/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    016 MACKEY LJJ 97002025 - 19/04/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    017 MUSTARD WS 97001752 - 31/07/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    018 PARRY WA 97001933 - 21/01/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    019 PITMAN DW 97003001 - 21/05/1945 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    020 ROBINSON L 97002863 - 11/07/1944 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    021 SARGENT F 97004801 - 27/08/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    022 SELF PA 97004191 NON COMBATANT CORPS 03/01/1944 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    023 TAYLOR DA 97001009 NON COMBATANT CORPS 28/04/1946 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    024 WALLER HE 97002806 - 23/01/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    025 WHITEHOUSE HJT 97000758 - 12/02/1945 NON COMBATANT CORPS

    None are buried overseas so I guess its a fair bet they never left the UK as a unit.

    Unlike the WW1 NCC, no companies of the WW2 NCC were deployed overseas. A few individual members, by voluntary arrangement, were transferred in 1945 to the RAMC and posted to Parachute Field Ambulance units, some actually landing in Normandy on D-Day.

    With regard to the list of he NCC members commemorated by the CWGC, Desmond Bray and Kenneth Coney, are cited as dying on 3-4 May 1941. The reason for the uncertainty about the actual date of death is that they were killed by the bombing of Walton Prison, Liverpool, over the night in question, and the precise time of death was not determined. The reason for their being in prison was that they they were unwilling members of the NCC, having been refused wider exemption by their CO tribunals, and had each been court-martialled for disobedience and sentenced to imprisonment.
     
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  2. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Thanks to Geoff's WSE :poppy:

    001 BATTY LA 97007877 - 04/10/1947 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    002 BRAY DE 97003170 - 03/05/1941 - - 04/05/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    003 BRISTOW HK 97001959 ATTD 16/03/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    004 CONEY K 97001976 - 03/05/1941 - - 04/05/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    005 COWELL J 97006658 - 16/11/1944 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    006 DANHER JT 97003629 - 21/03/1945 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    007 FORSTER A 97001908 - 20/07/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    008 GILMOUR JJ 97001643 NON COMBATANT CORPS 25/04/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    009 GOLDBERG S 97002376 - 06/01/1946 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    010 GREAVES H 97002144 - 11/01/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    011 GREEN J 97005685 - 13/03/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    012 HARDEN PJ 97003963 - 06/04/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    013 HOGAN EH 97003031 - 31/12/1940 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    014 JONES B 97003127 - 11/02/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    015 LITTELL GA 97004022 - 13/09/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    016 MACKEY LJJ 97002025 - 19/04/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    017 MUSTARD WS 97001752 - 31/07/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    018 PARRY WA 97001933 - 21/01/1942 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    019 PITMAN DW 97003001 - 21/05/1945 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    020 ROBINSON L 97002863 - 11/07/1944 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    021 SARGENT F 97004801 - 27/08/1943 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    022 SELF PA 97004191 NON COMBATANT CORPS 03/01/1944 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    023 TAYLOR DA 97001009 NON COMBATANT CORPS 28/04/1946 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    024 WALLER HE 97002806 - 23/01/1941 NON COMBATANT CORPS
    025 WHITEHOUSE HJT 97000758 - 12/02/1945 NON COMBATANT CORPS

    None are buried overseas so I guess its a fair bet they never left the UK as a unit.

    Harry Bristow is here simply noted as "attached". In fact he was attached to the RE, which leads me to believe that he was the one, hitherto anonymous, fatal casualty among the 400 + members of the NCC who volunteered for bomb disposal work.
     
  3. ChrisR

    ChrisR Senior Member

    Couple of questions relating to Conchies -
    I'm intersted in finding out some more about the circumstances of Bristows death. Would his death certificate be likely to yield any information, like place/cause? There were a couple of chaps from 16 BD Company killed on a minefield the day before at Tenby so wondering if he might have been connected to them.

    Also the name Forster in the above list. In the book Danger UXB by M.J.Jappy another Conscientious Objector, Chris Wren, mentions a chap who was also an objector called 'Titch' Foster and he was apparently killed as a result of bullying by other members of the Pioneer Corp, though this was never prooven. This was at a time they were both serving in a RE BD unit but billeted with Pioneer Corp. From a quick check I can't see anyone in the CWGC records from either the NCC or Pioneer Corps by that name, so maybe Foster and Forster are one and the same?

    Next question - I'm struggling to find out what badges/insignia the Non Combatant Corp men would have worn while serving with the Royal Engineers bomb disposal. I know they wore both NCC badge (assume on their caps and/or shoulder) as well as the red bomb insignia on their sleeve, but what are these shoulder insignia on the photo below? It looks like Wren (mentioned above) in this photo also has a slide on badge on his epliette - would that be Pioneer Corp to whom he had been seconded at one time for forestry work, or NCC, as I believe both existed? In most of the photos conchies in BD that I have found they are in shirt sleeves, which doesn't help much!
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  6. ChrisR

    ChrisR Senior Member

    Very useful links. Many Thanks.
    By the way, a couple of good books on the subject are -
    'The Unfinished Man' by James Byrom published in 1957. He served in the AFS, Pioneer Corp, Bomb Disposal and Paratroop Medical Service taking part in Normandy and the Rhine.
    Also 'Conchie', by Ernest Spring published in 1975. He also served in BD.
     
  7. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    The actor James Mason, of 'The Desert Fox' fame, was a very high profile conscientious objector. His application not to take part in the War was turned down by the Conscientious Objector Tribunal, which ordered him to report for non combatant service. He even baulked at this on the basis it would be aiding the War effort and eventually he was allowed to transfer to the reserve list, but only on the basis that he contributed to public morale by remaining employed in the entertainment industry. Two of his brothers enlisted - Rex and Colin. His family did not talk to him for many years.

    Strange that he should make such a good living out of War films...
     
  8. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    The actor James Mason, of 'The Desert Fox' fame, was a very high profile conscientious objector. His application not to take part in the War was turned down by the Conscientious Objector Tribunal, which ordered him to report for non combatant service. He even baulked at this on the basis it would be aiding the War effort and eventually he was allowed to transfer to the reserve list, but only on the basis that he contributed to public morale by remaining employed in the entertainment industry.

    This account misrepresents the procedure. The Tribunal accepted Mason's application for registration as a conscientious objector, but allowed him only the lowest category of exemption, viz to enter the armed forces as a non-combatant, effectively to join the Non-Combatant Corps. Mason quite properly exercised his right of appeal to the Appellate Tribunal, on the ground that as a pacifist he had no business in the Army at all, non-combatant or otherwise, and the Appellate Tribunal re-registered him as exempted from military service conditional upon remaining in the entertainment industry. As he never entered the Army, there was no question of him being "transferred" to any "reserve list", nor was such a procedure ever applicable to WW2 COs.

    It may be remarked as background that prior to the Tribunal hearing Mason and his future wife had engaged in farming on a small-holding, with a view to his seeking exemption conditional upon doing agricultural work, a common form of conditional exemption for conscientious objectors.
     
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  9. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Did you intend your response to be curt, Drayton; because that's how it reads.

    I wrote my Message based on background material held. So, if my Message is misrepresentative of the proceedure - the intricacies of which I couldn't care less about - then that is down to faulty background material. The purpose of my Message was to identify James Mason as a conscientious objector; something that perhaps a lot of other forum members didn't know.

    Steve.
     
  10. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Couple of questions relating to Conchies -
    I'm intersted in finding out some more about the circumstances of Bristows death. Would his death certificate be likely to yield any information, like place/cause? There were a couple of chaps from 16 BD Company killed on a minefield the day before at Tenby so wondering if he might have been connected to them.

    Also the name Forster in the above list. In the book Danger UXB by M.J.Jappy another Conscientious Objector, Chris Wren, mentions a chap who was also an objector called 'Titch' Foster and he was apparently killed as a result of bullying by other members of the Pioneer Corp, though this was never prooven. This was at a time they were both serving in a RE BD unit but billeted with Pioneer Corp. From a quick check I can't see anyone in the CWGC records from either the NCC or Pioneer Corps by that name, so maybe Foster and Forster are one and the same?

    Next question - I'm struggling to find out what badges/insignia the Non Combatant Corp men would have worn while serving with the Royal Engineers bomb disposal. I know they wore both NCC badge (assume on their caps and/or shoulder) as well as the red bomb insignia on their sleeve, but what are these shoulder insignia on the photo below? It looks like Wren (mentioned above) in this photo also has a slide on badge on his epliette - would that be Pioneer Corp to whom he had been seconded at one time for forestry work, or NCC, as I believe both existed? In most of the photos conchies in BD that I have found they are in shirt sleeves, which doesn't help much!
    [​IMG]

    Bristow's death certificate should certainly give the place of death and some account of the cause. The two deaths the day previously might well be related, there being the possibility that Bristow was not killed immediately but survived until the next day. In that case the place of death might be a hospital, but presumably not too far from the fatal incident.

    As there is no NCC CO named Foster known to have died, it is possible that Wren was referring to Alec Forster. It is not known whether he had a nickname Titch, nor are the circumstances of his death known. Apart from Wren's account, there has been no suggestion of a death resulting from bullying. It is possible that his death certificate might reveal something.

    Although the NCC was serviced by Pioneer Corps officers and NCOs, and the NCC sometimes worked alongside the Pioneer Corps, no CO was ever a member of the Pioneer Corps. NCC members would have always worn their NCC shoulder flashes, never that of any other corps, even though they might wear BD or regional insignia in addition. Being attached to the RE is not the same as being a member of the RE.
     
  11. jetson

    jetson Junior Member

    In my unit in the fifties, there was a quiet lad performing his National Service, who wore the brown beret minus cap badge of the NCC with black shoulder flashes, lettered yellow. He was employed on coal fatigues and such around the married quarters. No-one ever said but I would think he was a CO who had been ordered by a tribunal to serve his two years and not be excused. Whether such lads of his calling did any military basic training I know not.
     
  12. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    The 11th Hussars wore a brown beret minus a capstar.

    We had a young lad at the depot who had been back squadded once too often and the army decided to call it a day. Whilst awaiting his discharge he was left with a pair of coveralls a beret and handed a broom. Spending the days wandering around getting hollared at. We were in the open MT sheds on the edge of the square when we heard 'Piggy' Barnes (Depot Sergeant Major) hollaring. a quick look around the corner , on the other side of the square it was the lad himself, leaning up against a tree with a grey cloud of cigarette smoke - totally ignoring 'Piggy' beret on back of head he wandered off! I imagine in national service days he would have been kept on until his time was up.
     
  13. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Did you intend your response to be curt, Drayton; because that's how it reads.

    I wrote my Message based on background material held. So, if my Message is misrepresentative of the procedure - the intricacies of which I couldn't care less about - then that is down to faulty background material. The purpose of my Message was to identify James Mason as a conscientious objector; something that perhaps a lot of other forum members didn't know.



    I apologise if, in attempting to be concise about a complex subject, I appeared curt. That was not my intention. I am, however, conscious that there is much misunderstanding about many aspects of conscientious objection, as is illustrated by the source on which you relied, and, although you personally may not be interested in technicalities, it would defeat what I understand to be one of the functions of the Forum - a means of mutual education and information-sharing - if the cited account of Mason's conscientious objection were to let pass without remark.

    As to publicising Mason's little-known conscientious objection, it happens that he was born on what was to become International Conscientious Objectors' Day, 15 May, and on that day in 2009, the centenary of his birth, his name was read out as a representative British CO at the annual ceremony at the Conscientious Objectors' Commemorative Stone in Tavistock Square, London.
     
  14. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    In my unit in the fifties, there was a quiet lad performing his National Service, who wore the brown beret minus cap badge of the NCC with black shoulder flashes, lettered yellow. He was employed on coal fatigues and such around the married quarters. No-one ever said but I would think he was a CO who had been ordered by a tribunal to serve his two years and not be excused. Whether such lads of his calling did any military basic training I know not.

    If he wore the NCC flash, he must have been a conscientious objector. The NCC did undergo basic training in square-bashing, route marches and the like, but nothing to do with weapons.
     
  15. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    I apologise if, in attempting to be concise about a complex subject, I appeared curt. That was not my intention. I am, however, conscious that there is much misunderstanding about many aspects of conscientious objection, as is illustrated by the source on which you relied, and, although you personally may not be interested in technicalities, it would defeat what I understand to be one of the functions of the Forum - a means of mutual education and information-sharing - if the cited account of Mason's conscientious objection were to let pass without remark.

    As to publicising Mason's little-known conscientious objection, it happens that he was born on what was to become International Conscientious Objectors' Day, 15 May, and on that day in 2009, the centenary of his birth, his name was read out as a representative British CO at the annual ceremony at the Conscientious Objectors' Commemorative Stone in Tavistock Square, London.

    No worries, Drayton...

    Thanks for the additional information on James Mason and the Conscientious Objectors' Commemorative Stone. I had no idea that there was such a commemoration. What's more, I used to work just around the corner from Tavistock Square until mid-2010; when we relocated to High Holborn. I walk past Tavistock Place on my way to work up to four times a week... I will be down in London again on Friday and will have a look at the commemoration then, if time permits.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  16. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    The Stone is in the north-west quadrant of the Tavistock Square, not far from the Hiroshima cherry tree. The ceremony is held at the Stone every 15 May at 12.00 noon.
     
  17. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    The Stone is in the north-west quadrant of the Tavistock Square, not far from the Hiroshima cherry tree. The ceremony is held at the Stone every 15 May at 12.00 noon.

    Thanks again, Drayton!
     
  18. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  19. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

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    Hopefully these are of some interest, all 4 have numbers from the NCC block - I think 2 moved onto be members of the RE later on - Butcher was involved in bomb disposal work, I got the book from his nephew and from memory (I'm struggling to find my notes) he went down the NCC route due to his father and uncle (an MM winner) experiences in WW1.

    Regards

    Alistair
     
  20. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    Thanks for this, very helpful.

    The two who went on to bomb disposal work would have been attached to the RE, but would have remained members of the NCC. That was the official and only way of retaining their conscientious objector status.

    It would be useful to know who was the other one, besides Butcher, to go into bomb disposal, and also to know the forenames of Butcher's father and uncle as apparently members of the WW1 NCC.
     

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