Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

A soldier who is seated appears to have a French bayonet tucked into his belt, very casually, perhaps for show?

The naval officer appears to be British but I am not sure about the two naval ratings if you look closely at their cap tally's ; perhaps they are French?

Regards

AlanD

 

I doubt they are French. None of the famous pompoms.

 

More Light on American Committee to Defend British Homes

I have been browsing through a book about the Home Guard by Malcolm Atkin, who has written extensively about the HG and the planned British resistance movement. He throws a little more light on the armament of these organizations and also on the American Committee for the Defense of British Homes. That outfit has been alluded to before here. Some authorities state that the arms collected by the ACDBH went to the Home Guard, but that appears to be largely incorrect. The committee collected only about 25,000 arms, and quite aside from being odd types and in odd calibers many of these guns were simply unusable. The WO was skeptical of the whole project and little use was made of the guns collected but the committee was kept going mainly for propaganda purposes. Postwar some weapons were indeed returned to their owners in the States, but the rest were not dumped at sea as legend has it but auctioned off for charity. Atkin also reproduces another 1941 list of acceptable arms, as advertised in the American Rifleman and attached here. Previous lists I have seen seemed to be moderately sensible in that the arms and ammo specified were fairly modern and in calibers commonly obtainable in Europe or made by Kynoch and others (9mm Para, .380, .38, .32, .7.63mm, .30, .303, etc). The American Rifleman list, however, includes such calibers as the .45-70, an ancient black powder round used in the old Springfield Trapdoor rifle, .280 Ross, .20 gauge shotgun, etc. Very strange.

 

Harrington and Richardson Revolvers, Part I: The Bobby

The firm of Harrington & Richardson in Worcester Massachusetts had long been known as a manufacturer of inexpensive but fairly good quality sporting guns and revolvers. During WWI, the British had contemplated ordering revolvers from H&R but nothing came of the idea. During WWII, however, the British Purchasing Commission placed a contract with H&R for 25,000 typical H&R type top-break revolvers in .32 S&W Long caliber. The result was something of a disaster, which surprises me because H&R was not known for making junk. OK, they did make the Reising SMG, but I had read that the real problem with that gun was the design and not poor quality manufacture. These .32 H&Rs were eventually issued to British police, hence the name Bobby. Not many appear to have survived, but I have attached photos of one which did. At the time H&R was quite proud of the Bobby and even featured the gun in its advertising. Apparently a .38 version was also made but was never adopted as a military arm, which is not surprising given the problems with the .32. I will let Alan D tell the rest: H&R Bobby

 

We that would explain the French bayonet which has obviously become a souvenir.

Regards
AlanD

 

In brief the Metropolitan Police ordered 25,000 of these from H&R along with about 500,000 rounds of ammo. In the end a little over 23,500 were delivered but had quality control issues. This is surprising as H&R were quite capable of making a good quality handgun. The Met even got Churchill the gunmaker to look at them who was disparaging about the quality. Long story short about 1,700 of these were shipped back to H&R in the U.S.A for modification (fixing) these were then marked MkII on top of the barrel extension.
All these Met Bobby Pistols are serial numbered between 1 and just over 23,500 with the serial number being prefixed with the letters MP. This is how you can identify a genuine Met Bobby revolver, not that you are likely to see one. At the close of the war the revolvers were scrapped by melting down. Not dumped in the sea.
A tiny number about a dozen were issued to a London transport authority or some similar body, notes not to hand. A couple were issued elsewhere and half a dozen were 'pilfered'. The upshot is i only know of two examples of these pistols anywhere in the world. The one in the photos above and another one with large wooden grips in the U.S.A. Both are marked MkII on the barrel extension and i think these never made there way back to the U.K. but I could be wrong about this.

Regards

AlanD

 

I really recommend Malcolm Atkins book. I had the privilege of reading the draft chapter on the American Committee for Defese of British Homes and being able to make some comments. The whole short but interesting history of the ACFDOBH , is worth the price of the book alone. Suffice to say there are over a dozen files at TNA in Kew that relate to this topic. Some are contradictory and confusing with a committee in the UK literally changing its name over night and a member of the British Purchasing Committee being involved with the Committee as well, causing a conflict of interest. Somehow Malcolm makes sense of all this and relates the story in a readable way. The book is extremely heavily referenced, to academic standards, so the reader can look at the same files if they ever visit Kew.
My favorite letter in the files at Kew is from the committee in America to the UK receiving committee asking them NOT to send anymore guns back to America. It was causing too many problems with duties payable in New York and transportation of the guns across the country. The real story is in the files which completely contradicts what has become urban myth about guns being lent and not gifted and then dumped in the sea!
In addition to the AMFDOBH, the book also has a few pages on the small arms of the 1st American Motorized Squadron, based in London.

As far as the advertisement is concerned in the American Rifleman in 1941 for ammunition. Most of the rifle calibers are American and give an indication of the rifles that were gifted by the American public who wanted to help Britain in its hour of need.

Regards

AlanD

 

Harrington and Richardson Revolvers Part II: The Model 25 Defender

H&R had much better luck with another wartime revolver, the Defender. This was another H&R top-break, this time in .38 S&W (= .380 British revolver). An early version of the gun had been around since the mid-30s but it didn't sell very well on the commercial market. Then the war came and it became clear to H&R that there might be some hope of selling a decent but inexpensive revolver to the combatants. They fiddled with the design a little. Early Defenders had fixed sights, but these later became adjustable. The gun seems to have been fairly successful and was sold widely in the US to various defense organizations (plant guards, etc). The Norwegian Navy got some, and if I recall a reference I can't find now others went to the inter-allied agency responsible for arming merchant ships. Charles Pate, the leading authority on US secondary handguns, says that "Additional.38 Defenders went to the British, but no shipping records are available." The IWM has an early fixed-sights Defender in their collection and says that the weapon was "rare in British service." Rare, it would seem, but not unheard of. Defenders, unlike Bobbies, are still fairly common today and I have seen no adverse comments about their quality. Attached are pictures of an early version with the fixed sights and one of the more common later variants.

 

The few British marked examples of the .38 Defender that are in existence seem to have a 3 digit serial numbers.

The other rare H&R secondary issue H&R revolver is the 9 shot Sportsman series which the UK purchased.

I have got one and it just has the British military proof mark of crossed pennants on the side of the barrel rib.
How many the UK got seems to be unknown.

Does anyone have one of the Sportsman British military marked guns?

Regards

Alan

 

I forgot to add in my post above. I spent some time the other evening going through the catalogue of the Library & Archives Canada site. I found a file with the title, Supply of Guns & Mountings - Norwegian Government. So weather this includes small arms I am not sure, perhaps its armaments for Norwegian shipping?

Regards

AlanD

 

Well, Charles Pate reports (p.119) that a shipment of 350 Defenders went to the Norwegian Navy in June-July 1943. I don't have his book actually in front of me so I don't know if he said any more about it or if the guns were routed through Canada or the British or came straight from the H&R factory. However, the IWM says in its commentary on the Defender in its collection that among the main users of the weapon were "the US Navy and the Royal Norwegian Navy via Lend-Lease vessels."

 

To shift away from small arms for a bit...let's try half-tracks.

The Americans and the Germans were by far the greatest users and builders of half-tracks in WWII. The British (and of course dominions, empire, etc) received large numbers of the American White-Autocar types, but some captured German vehicles were also used. The SdKfz 250 and the larger SdKkz 251 were the main German combat types. Captured SdKfz 251 were employed occasionally, especially in NWE, but I have yet to see any photographic evidence that British forces used the smaller SdKfz 250 in action. (Yes, I have seen the photo of an SdKfz 250 with the SdKfz 222 turret, but that picture was clearly taken in a depot, which does not necessarily indicate combat use). Using the SdKfz 251 up front of course involved some risk of friendly fire, especially from Allied aircraft, so most of the German half-tracks used by British forces appear to have been of the unarmored variety. The frequency of photographs showing these vehicles in British use suggests that they were fairly common and valued for their towing and load-carrying properties. I can tell an SdKfz 250 from a 251 easily enough, but all but the smallest of the half-track prime movers all so look so similar to my eye that it is difficult for me to tell them apart unless I squint very carefully at the scale. Here, then, is a collection of images of German half-tracks with the type indicated, in at least one case speculatively. If anyone can offer any corrections to the labels I'd be grateful.

 

Panther "Cuckoo" is mentioned a few times on this forum, just adding a couple of photos that don't show up often

German Panther captured by 4th Coldstream Guards, Geijsteren castle on the banks of the Maas, 29 November 1944; IWM B 12184 | WW2Talk

 

To shift away from small arms for a bit...let's try some soft-skin vehicles

Schwimmwagen captured from 12th SS Panzer Division (HitlerJugend) by the 23rd Hussars, 11th Armoured Division - 6 July 1944

Kubelwagen Volkswagen Type 82 with desert issue balloon tyres captured by British Commonwealth troops in the Western Desert - August 1942

German Motorcycle with a RCAF Typhoon pilot

 

And now for some Panzer III Ausf. J tanks used by the Polish Carpathian Uhlan Lancers Regiment in July 1942

 

And some SPGs to finish for the day

Marder III Ausf. M, Sd.Kfz. 138 Panzerjäger 38(t) mit 7.5 cm PaK 40-3 in British service following capture - December 1943

Nashorn with troops from the Westminster Regiment, 5th Canadian Armored Brigade following capture near Pontecorvo, Italy - 26 May 1944

Nashorn tank destroyer in Canadian hands following capture

 

Yesterday there was a tweet of a SdKfz 250 and a Bren Carrier in French service in Indo-China, alas unable now to find it. Damm.

 

Thank you. The Marder has been posted previously in this thread, and Von P posted the PzKw IIIs of the Poles in another thread. To clarify, I am only discussing or posting images of captured equipment which was actually used in service after capture. It's often hard to tell, I admit, but I am doubtful that the Canadians are actually using that Nashorn as a combat vehicle.

 

Weren't most of the Lend-Lease half-tracks Internationals? Armor wasn't as good but I think the engines were slightly more powerful than the White six used in the White-Autocar version. Not the point of your post but I like stuff like that.