Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

Memories of 1778!!
John Paul Jones leads American raid on Whitehaven, England

 

6-Inch Gun Mark 10
Here is another strange one. Over on axishistory.com, some members were trying to identify a coastal gun seen in use by the Tonga Defence Force. Member roland1369 tentatively named it as a US Navy weapon, a 6-inch Gun Mark 10 on an M22 or M23 pedestal mount. But just what was the 6-Inch Gun Mark 10? Navweaps.com says that the USN did have such a weapon, but that it was an experimental or evaluation-only type purchased in small numbers from Vickers; moreover, "no details survive," so who knows what performance was. A few still survived in USN inventory, though, and these were given to the army in WWII for coast defense. Some went to Alaska and two more were emplaced at Battery Lobos at Fort Miley in the defenses of San Francisco (see the second image). I suppose there must be a manual or data out there somewhere, but just where beats me. Given the oddity of the weapon it's not surprising that it was given to the TDF, we did that sort of thing with a number of other weapons types we had little use for.

 

Fort Miley: Battery Lobos
CDSG Gun Card Collection - FortWiki Historic U.S. and Canadian Forts

 

145mm Gun Mle 1916 (sur affut a support enveloppant)

Here is another French gun which found its way into British service. The weapon in question is an oddity, not apparently to be confused with the much better known St. Chamond 145mm Mle 1916 which was used as a field weapon in WWI. According to a thread on Axishistory (French coast defence guns at Beirut, 1941? - Axis History Forum), during WWI the French took some unneeded 138.6mm M1893 naval guns, re-bored them to 145mm, and then installed them on merchant ships and so forth. In the 1930s four of these guns were installed at Beirut on a kind of omnibus coastal mounting ("enveloping support mount") which was also used for other guns. These pieces saw action in the Syrian campaign, when the Vichy gunners got sufficient traverse out of them to fire on Australian ground troops with some effect. After capture, a British coastal battery moved in and took them over. The attached images show the guns shortly after they had fallen into Australian hands and then again with British gunners. The guns fired an 80 lb. shell with a maximum range of 17,000 meters (c.18,500 yards). An IWM caption says that effective range was actually 14,000 yards.

 

A few bits and bobs.

Canadian Military Headquarters, London : T-17499 - Héritage
This reference from April 1941 appears to relate to lend lease M1916 guns. I’m not aware of what Major-General Hickes' subsequent enquiries achieved.


This screen capture appears to be the reception of a batch of lend lease M1916 guns with a handful of 18-pdrs in the background. I don’t know where this was taken but have seen Donnington and Sheffield mentioned in relation to the earlier cash & carry guns.


Another 6” mortar fragment:

During the summer of 1940, 221 Medium Battery, 56 Medium Regt, which had lost its equipment at Dunkirk, arrived with eight 6” mortars. The role of these guns was to cover the beaches.
Field & Med. Artillery - Suffolk Anti-invasion defences​

One final thought. There have recently been a number of interesting posts regarding coast defence weapons which I think deserve a wider audience and wonder if these should be stripped-out into their own thread. It would help with continuity with this thread too IMO.

 

https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_reel_c5793/3619?r=0&s=3

 

Thanks for the bits and bobs, they give me reason to address the M1916 in a forthcoming post.

I am not posting generally about coast defense here, just about specific weapons which were not standard. A coast defense thread would be a great idea, and if one starts up I will gladly cross-post the things I've put here to it or whatever one does.

 

To add to the above this gun is mentioned by Ian Hogg in one of his books. It could be dismantled in to ten pack loads for mule transport. Production started before completion of trials that revealed the gun was unstable when towed across rough country causing the gun to overturn frequently. Worse, during endurance trials in which thousands of rounds wer fired the spring recuperator kept failing in spite of efforts to find springs that would stand up to the pounding. Finally on 13th November 1944 the Director General of Artillery declared that the project should be abandoned. It was declared obsolete 18th April 1945.

Although not mentioned in the text, one photo shows the gun on a firing platform like that used by the 25pr.

He notes that the Americans tried the same thing with more success, forming Infantry Cannon Companies using the 105mm Howitzer M3.

 

Well, the Americans didn't really have that much better luck. The 105mm M3 was an OK weapon, or OK once you accepted the limitations of the concept to which it was designed (shorter range than the M2). The problem was that as a towed weapon the M3 couldn't deploy as rapidly or as close to the battle line as the infantry wanted for the close support role. In North Africa the infantry cannon companies had been equipped with SP 75mm and 105mm howitzers on half track or full track mounts (T30, T19, M7) and in the post VE-Day reorganization for the assault on Japan the US Army went back to this assault gun-like idea. Under that scheme, each infantry cannon company got nine M4 tanks armed with 105mm howitzers in place of the towed M3s.

 

75mm Gun M1916

Well, this thing is a bit of a story, and not a pretty one. As of 1914 the US Army's field artillery batteries were equipped with a reasonably modern gun, the 3-inch M1903. This was typical of guns of its day in that it had a pole trail which restricted range. US Ordnance was already looking forward to replace it, and the new weapon was to have a split trail for better elevation and range as well as various other advanced features. The project for the new M1916 was well advanced in 1917, at which point it was decided to re-chamber the gun to fire French 75mm ammunition. To make a long and ugly story short, the M1916 became a scandal and a classic demonstration of the engineer's saw that the Best is the Enemy of the Good. Ordnance didn't talk to the field artillery much when developing the gun and the mad designers kept tinkering with it which led to multiple variants and constant delays. The intended hydro-spring recoil system didn't work very well at high elevations so a hydro-pneumatic system was used as an alternative. The end result was a mess. The gun was inaccurate (too much play in elevation and traverse) and the carriage was too fragile. Only a handful of guns ever got to France in 1918 and none fired in anger. Over 1000 guns were made, but less than 400 of these were mated to carriages as completed weapons before production was shut down. The surplus guns were used as sub-caliber weapons or installed on coast defense mounts. The completed field guns remained in service and the hydro-spring system was apparently fixed. The main variants were the M1916 (hydro-spring) and M1916A1 (hydro-pneumatic). As of 1940 the US Army did not consider these guns fit for combat, but it wasn't until 1941 and the Lend-Lease Act that it found a way to get rid of them. Details are confusing, but over half of the surviving guns went to Britain and others to Greece, Yugoslavia, Colombia, Haiti, and the army of the about-to-be independent Philippines. Some of the guns in the UK were used by the Home Guard. Some of the British guns also went to the Middle East, or maybe they were the Yugo pieces diverted into British hands there. At any rate some were used by the Arab Legion, who portee'd them on truck beds. In 1948, at least one was mounted by the Syrians atop an old Lorraine carrier as an SP gun. As mentioned previously here, perhaps as many as two dozen were eventually sent to Malaya where they were used for anti-tank and beach defense. The whole story of this weapon in WWII is very cloudy. A number of threads on axishistory and overvalwagen are devoted to it, but I am too weary of the subject to post the links here.

 

My guess is that the film is from Donnington. I have seen IWM photos taken at that depot which show a variety of US weapons, including 155mm M1917/18 howitzers and 8" howitzers (the latter the old pattern slated for conversion to 7.2").

 

Hi, I don't know if you are aware of this thread or not. It suggests that the unit may have simply removed the guns and mounts from worn-out M3s and installed them in newer half tracks of various types. RCDs & M3 75mm GMC? - MLU FORUM

 

Is that an SA-18 strapped to the gun barrel as a spotting/training weapon?

 

Sorry, I don't know. The US Army did have the 37mm Mle 1916/SA 18 series in its interwar inventory, the former as an infantry and anti-tank gun and the latter on some old FT17 tanks, but I have no idea if they used them as spotting weapons or not. A US coast defense expert or site might be able to tell you.

 

I'd doubt it had the range to be honest. So I'd guess its more of a simulation fit.

 

The UK-based Ordnance Society has published a spreadsheet of British 6 inch breech loading, quick firing guns, with links to photos on Flickr. It may be of interest and it is amazing where they ended up, even if many have since disappeared.

Updates would be welcome.

Link: WORLDWIDE SURVEY OF BRITISH 6-IN BL & QF GUNS

 

That's an excellent resource, thanks!

 

Well, wikipedia says that the 37mm M1916 was indeed used as a spotting/training piece on larger ordnance. So you were right after all.

 

The Mauser C96 Again: Users

I keep coming back to the C96. Well, why not? It's a classic firearm and one of my favorites. Some were in British inventory in WWII, but who used them? First of all, the Home Guard and Auxiliary Units. As we have seen in previous posts, the C96 was one of the weapons specified as desirable in the ads in the US soliciting guns for the defense of British homes. If references in US newspapers in the 20s and 30s are anything to go by then quite a few C96s were floating around the States, most probably WWI bring-backs since a new one was pretty expensive. In his work on Home Guard armament, D.M. Clarke reports that some of these guns were channeled towards the HG and Auxiliaries. Clarke says Auxiliary patrols carried the C96 as one of their most common handguns, another being the Beretta M34/35. Some HG units had them also. One of the attached photos shows a display by the Dorset Home Guard, with a C96 with stock affixed in the center of the table. Another image is from a series of photos showing a HG artillery group training with some 6-pdr 6 cwt guns (another peculiar weapon--more on that in the future). In the foreground of the image a Home Guardsman is lying in the grass with what may be either a Thompson or a C96 carbine. Another confirmed user was the Shanghai Municipal Police. Like the Shanghai Volunteer Corps, this famous force was largely British-organized and commanded which was not surprising since the British tended to dominate the Shanghai International Settlement. The Colt M1908 .380 pocket model was the most common SMP handgun, but I think the force had some M1911s and Smith & Wesson .38 M&P revolvers as well. They very certainly had some Mauser C96s, which was natural because the C96 was very popular in China. I have attached images of two SMP C96s, both 7.63mm interwar commercial "Bolo" models with short barrels.

 

A few comments on the C96 in British service including the SMP.
A record of 30 C96 pistols and 25 other assorted pistols being received by Britain in 1941, shows up in the contract record ledgers in Kew. The souse is not given other than 'Shanghai'. I suspect these were donated by the Shanghai Municipal Police before Shanghai was lost to the Japanese in December 1941. They were most probably collected from (dead) criminals. Indeed the the C96 in SMP circles was something of a legend with Fairbairn noting that the mention of a Mauser pistol had men scurrying for their bullet proof amour and shield. Horror stories of limbs being pulped by a single hit from a Mauser pistol, did the rounds. I don't know that the Mausers were ever issued to the normal SMP constables, the pistols of choice being the Colt Pocket Hammerless and Colt government Model. More models and makes only made for more complication in training. Although Browning Model 1910 pistols are seen with SMP markings, also some Webley revolvers and Colt .25 autos.

As far as British forces are concerned, some photos are out there of Home Guard men with artillery Lugers and other assorted pistols. These were either privately owned, as were in fact most of the handguns that HG officers carried, with a supplement of pistols that were gathered in America by the American Committee for Defense of British Homes. Most of the suitable handguns from this collection were collared by the head of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, Beaverbrook, for his Factory Defence Unit, Home Guard.
I have seen no evidence of any Mauser pistols being issued to Aux Units. If Clarke states this in his doctoral dissertation or book, I believe he is in error. The standard revolver was a .38 Smith & Wesson or Colt. Along with later issue of Enfield .38 revolvers. In the early days some .32 Colt Hammerless pistols were issued, I have read 400 units but never seen the source of this claim, however I have seen official correspondence stating that these were withdrawn, which means they were issued at one point. I do not know where these Colt .32 autos went but suspect SOE.

Regards

AlanD