Non-standard, substitute standard, and captured weapons in British and Commonwealth service

1) Colt Police Positive revolver
2) Colt Officer's Model revolver
3) Colt Officer's Model Target revolver (a handful)
4) Colt Police Positive Special revolver (Unclear to me, but Pate's the expert)
5) Colt Single Action Army revolver (.45, .357, .38 Special)
6) S&W Regulation Police revolver (200 ordered for a mining firm)
7) Colt .38 Super (or Super Match?) automatic
8) Harrington & Richardson revolvers (.32, .38)
9) Iver Johnson revolvers (.32, .38)



Hello T,

Excellent post

Do you have any additional information on the SAA in CW service? This is the first I've heard of it. Obviously one of the coolest pistols ever.

I've didn't think any of them were chambered for the .357 until the second generation in the mid-fifties and I've never heard of one in .38 Special. A .38 Special with British marking would have to be one of the rarest and most valuable ever.

Legend has it that Patton had a .45 ACP cylinder made and fitted to his SAA during the war because he couldn't get any .45 Colt ammo in Europe. Sounds fishy to me since I would think a three star general would be able to have a couple of boxes shipped to him. Besides, he had plenty of other pistols with him such as his .357 Smith, .38 ACP Colt and his .22 Woodsman.

If you have any pictures of the .25s, H&Rs or SSAs in service in Europe I would be most interested in looking at them.

Good thread.

Thanks,

Dave

 

Dave, I'm afraid I don't have any pictures of .25's, H & R's, or Iver Johnsons in actual combat service. From what I understand, most if not all of these guns went to non-frontline users like police, the Home Guard, and the merchant navy. I have seen a few snaps online of H & R's and Iver Johnson's with British markings, I'll try and track those down.

As for the Colt M1873 SAA, Skennerton and Pate have details on the numbers and calibers. I'm at work now, but I'll post the full information later. Yes indeed, the Peacemaker was purchased in .357 and .38 Special, but the British never got many and SAAs with British markings are very valuable now to collectors. They are colloquially referred to as "Battle of Britain Colts," though that term is sometimes used for all Colt handguns sent to Britain during WWII. Do some googling, and you should find references to them on gun sites.

 

There was a Yugoslav squadron in Alex with Dornier 17 and Dornier 22 K floatplanes. Not captured, pre-war Yugoslav. What's ironic is that at the same time as the RAF was flying German flying boats to hunt Axis subs off Alex, the Germans were flying Dutch Fokker TVIII floatplanes in the Aegean to hunt Royal Navy and allied submarines.

Fokker TVIII

There's a good overview on the RAF here:

RAF - Foreign Military Aircraft in WWII Service

All the best

Andreas

 

Dave:

According to Skennerton and Pate, in May 1940 the British obtained 173 Colt SAA revolvers. Of these, 108 were in .45 caliber, 19 in .357 Magnum, 24 in .38 Special, and 22 in .38 Long Colt. The .357's and .38's especially would command a pretty penny today if any are still around.

 

http://cas.awm.gov.au/thumb_img/015838
1943-09-28. NEW GUINEA. ADVANCE ON SALAMAUA. LT. ROY DAWSON FIRING JAPANESE AMMUNITION FROM A CAPTURED JAPANESE MOUNTAIN GUN AGAINST JAPS. THE GUN WAS CAPTURED BY THE AUSTRALIAN DURING THE ADVANCE ON SALAMAUA.
http://cas.awm.gov.au/thumb_img/127990
NX12463 LIEUTENANT R. H. DAWSON OF THE 2/6TH AUSTRALIAN FIELD REGIMENT, FIRING A CAPTURED MOUNTAIN GUN ONTO THE JAPANESE IN THE "COCONUTS" IN THE BOBDUBI AREA, NEW GUINEA, 1943-07-30, WATCHED BY A MEMBER OF HIS OBSERVATION POST PARTY, GUNNER W. G. PENGELLY.

 

There was a Chruchill equipped Tank Regiment in Italy that used a captured Panther and called it 'deserter'. I'll see if I can find details when I get home.

 

Dave:

According to Skennerton and Pate, in May 1940 the British obtained 173 Colt SAA revolvers. Of these, 108 were in .45 caliber, 19 in .357 Magnum, 24 in .38 Special, and 22 in .38 Long Colt. The .357's and .38's especially would command a pretty penny today if any are still around.

Quite a grab bag. Sounds like they contacted Colt and said, "Send us everything you have on the shelf." They were limited production by then and 173 sounds like a reasonable number to have in stock at the factory.

Very interesting.

Thanks

 

Quite a grab bag. Sounds like they contacted Colt and said, "Send us everything you have on the shelf."

Yes, I believe it probably happened just about that way. The British Purchasing Commission went to some big New York sporting goods firms and bought whatever they had on hand.

 

Nice pictures again, Spider. The Australians also used at least one Jap 75mm mountain gun at Buna. I've seen pictures of it being unloaded from a barge by an Aussie crew, and I think for a while it was the only artillery piece they had there.

 

Fascinating, Tony, thanks.

I can see where some of this ammo would be needed; the .38 S&W, .38 Special, and .380 ACP could be used in guns of those calibers the British had obtained. Small numbers of Mausers had been purchased through Liege and Shanghai, too. But why .32 Short Colt and .38 Short Colt? I had thought those calibers were considered obsolescent even on the civilian home defense market, and I can't recall that the British had any pistols in those calibers either. (Then again, some of the .38 revolvers Skennerton mentions had cylinders only 1.25" long, so maybe they could take the Short Colt?) And is the ".38 ACP" the original version of that cartridge, or that later and more powerful .38 Super that replaced it in the Colt line?

All of this is of course a pretty devastating comment on the insufficiency of British "rearmament" in the late 30's. That a great power should be reduced to scrambling in the middle of a global war for odd lots of home defense pocket pistols and obsolete cartridges is scandalous. People still try to defend Chamberlain and Baldwin, but I'm not one of them.

 

I don't know which it was, but as it did not say .38 Super the liklihood is that it was the older round. However, the .38 Super had been introduced quite a bit earlier in 1929.

Regards
TonyE

 

Writing as a member of a tank crew, we had the odd opportunity to handle
German small arms and I wrote about it here on comment #4:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/33018-flare-pistol.html#post368955

Ron

 

As well as non-standard, substitute, and captured weapons in British service during WWI and WWII, I am also interested in weapons considered for service but ultimately rejected. The British tested and evaluated many types between 1919 and 1939, and the Axis history forum has a very interesting thread about submachine guns that bears on this: Axis History Forum • View topic - Best SMG of WWII

There is a lot of chaff in the thread (diversions about SAWs, and how the Suomi could do everything except deodorize, etc), but if you are patient you will also find some excellent information about the foreign SMG types tested by British ordnance and what the British thought of them. See the posts of John T and peeved, especially on pages 11 and 15.

Among the types tested between 1915 and 1939 were:

Schmeisser-Haenel MP28 7.63mm Mauser
Solothurn S-100 9mm Mauser
Erma EMP36 9mm (Parabellum?)
Bergmann? (MP34?) 9mm Parabellum
Thompson .45 ACP
Suomi 9mm Parabellum
Beretta M38 9mm Parabellum

Others were the MP18/I, Revelli, Villar-Perosa, Vollmer, Nambu Type 1, Brondby, Biwarip, BSA, Hyde, Kiraly, Neuhausen, Star, and Smith & Wesson. Of these, the Suomi was rated very highly. The Thompson, however, was more readily available from the US, and the fact that the MP28 was an enemy gun meant that the British didn't have to worry about rights and licenses and so forth. Thus the Thompson and the Lanchester (an MP28 copy) became standard.

It should be noted that British troops in the Mediterranean often used captured Beretta M38's. (I have seen photos of 50th Division troops with them). Some online articles about the Timor campaign of 1942-43 say that the Australians on the island used some MP 28's that had originally belonged to the Dutch, but none give any references to back that up.

In an earlier post in this thread, I also mentioned that Ian Skennerton had found some mysterious wartime contracts for Schmeisser and Solothurn "automatic rifles." These may well have been MP28's and S100 SMG's respectively, though whether they were trial batches or odds and ends picked up in desperation from the international gun market is still unknown.
(Note that in 1940 both the Belgians and the Dutch used the MP 28.)

Also of interest on page 15 of the Axis History thread is the revelation that in early 1940 the Ordnance Board was considering the conversion of some self-loading (semiautomatic) rifles to full auto or selective fire. The types mentioned as candidates were the ZH29 (Holek), the Johnson, and the "YSC", clearly a misprint for the French RSC M1917/18 series of the First World War. The French had lost faith in the RSC, which anyway fired the unsuitable 8mm Lebel round, but the Holek and the Johnson were modern weapons. The ZH29 had been around for a number of years. It was a heavy, expensive weapon, usually seen in 7.92mm, and small numbers had been purchased by China (or Manchuria, anyway), Ethiopia, and I think some South American countries too. The Johnson did not appear in a production version until the following year (M1941, adopted by the Dutch and the USMC), so if the Ordnance Board saw or tested any they must have been prototype or pre-production. This is the first mention I've ever seen of possible British testing of these rifles, and I assume that they'd have to purchase some to test them.

 

Writing as a member of a tank crew, we had the odd opportunity to handle
German small arms and I wrote about it here on comment #4:
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/33018-flare-pistol.html#post368955

Ron

Thanks, Ron. Technical people and the men in the front of the battle had more opportunities to do that sort of thing than others. I once read a fascinating book by Clifford Shore called With British Snipers to the Reich. Shore was a musketry and sniping instructor, and in his time in Northwest Europe he handled just about every rifle around, both Allied and enemy.

 

The British Small Arms Committee/Ordnance Board tested just about every foreign weapon they could get their hands on, principally for intelligence purposes. This was often done by the local British Military Attache ordering the weapon dierect from the manufacturer.

The fact that the SAC/OB tested something does not mean that Britian was thinking of adopting it, so not too much weight should be placed on that fact alone.

The use of the term "Schmeisser" is also confusing, as the Lanchester derivative is often referred to as the Scmeisser gun in early British documentation. The first order to Winchester in 1940 for 9mmP ammunition states "for Scmeisser gun" in the Ministry of Supply order ledger.

Regards
TonyE

 

I'm sure you are right, Tony, but I thought it worth while to mention some of these types and post a link to the thread because in 1939-40 the SAC/OB were clearly looking for a submachine gun and possibly an automatic rifle to supplement existing types in the rifle section. They had looked at such weapons on and off since 1915, but by the first year of the Second World War the search was much more urgent. The Suomi at least got serious consideration, though it was not finally adopted. And yes, I do remember the confusion about the "Schmeisser" designation vis-a-vis the Lanchester. Funny, though, while the MP28 was tested in 7.63mm it was adopted in as the Lanchester in 9mm Parabellum.

 

I've spent a little time digging in various online firearms places and found a lot of new information. Well, not new to everybody, but new to me and I hope new to some people on this forum.

The question of British military shotguns has always puzzled me. The US forces (and especially the USMC) used them extensively in WWII and WWI, and according to the Hyperwar Lend-Lease link I posted earlier the US sent over 690,000 12 gauge shotgun shells to the UK under Lend-Lease alone. Various double and single-barrel shotguns were used for training by British forces, but except for some RFC WWI use (Winchester M1911 etc) shotguns were not apparently employed in combat until the Malayan Emergency. The current state of the research is summarized here:
Did the Brits use any shotguns?

However, some American made riot-type shotguns did leak into the British and Dominion inventories via various routes. The RIC/RUC often took its own path with weapons, and they had some Winchester M1897 riot guns as early as the 20's: IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM: FIREARMS | Imperial War Museums Winchester Model 97 riot shotgun Type 2 (IWM) | Imperial War Museums The Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun in The Constabulary Rifle and other firearms ForumShotgun#.T386ynKdZK0


The IWM weapons collection is a trove of curiosities. They have some weapons from the "Guns For Britain" program, most of which would have been considered antiques even in 1940. Yet a few worthwhile pieces came over too, including at least one Remington Model 10 riot gun:[FONT=&quot]Remington Model 10 riot shotgun | Imperial War Museums
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Canada, right across the border, had long used US police firearms. The Toronto police had this: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://johnsoncollector.com/winchester_model_12_riot_gun[/FONT]


No mention of a TPD contract or acquisition date on that gun, unfortunately, so it might be post WWII. The whole subject needs further research, obviously. The South Pacific Scouts? Canadian Army Pacific Force? The elusive Lend-Lease "theater transfers?"

 

Do you have any more info on the US use ?

I've seen picture of aerial gunners and pilots training with shotguns on clay birds and some civilian guards at munitions factories carrying them but I've never seen or read about any use in combat during WWII.

In WWI and Vietnam, yes.

Most interesting. Very short range and slow reloads would be pretty big disadvantages, I would think.

Thanks,

Dave

 

United States Marine and Army combat use of shotguns in WWII, especially in the Pacific Theater, is well documented; check any good book or website about US weaponry or the Pacific War and you will find lots of information. Somewhere or other I have a pdf file of the US Army manual for combat shotguns in WW2, covering all the main types. The most common were the Winchester M1897 and M1912 pump action 'trench guns' but Remington, Savage, and Stevens guns were all used. Most were pump action, but some were autoloaders. "Trench guns" (usually 20" or so barrel, cylinder choke) featured barrel jackets for better cooling, a sling, and a bayonet lug for the M1917 sword bayonet (same used on the M1917 Enfield rifle).

As to the tactical side of their use, this is well covered in Eric M. Bergerud's Pacific War book, Touched With Fire. Much combat in the Pacific was at extremely close ranges, and as any police officer will tell you a shotgun will really rip a close target. The slugs could go through an engine cylinder block, and a shotgun was ideal for stopping a crazed Jap on a banzai. Like the Tommy gun, shotguns also cut right through thick jungle brush and still did damage. Shotguns are famous intimidators, and along with flamethrowers they were one of the very few weapons the Japanese were genuinely afraid of. James Jones' fine novel The Thin Red Line (forget the movie, read the book) has a horrifying account of what a shotgun could do in action. They had their drawbacks, too, of course; they were essentially civilian and police weapons and so not particularly robust, and moisture in the shell casings was a real problem. I don't know how users dealt with the slow reload, maybe they just had to accept it. I do know that if I found myself leading a patrol in the South Pacific in 1943 I would want at least one shotgun in the party.

 

United States Marine and Army combat use of shotguns in WWII, especially in the Pacific Theater, is well documented; check any good book or website about US weaponry or the Pacific War and you will find lots of information. Somewhere or other I have a pdf file of the US Army manual for combat shotguns in WW2, covering all the main types. The most common were the Winchester M1897 and M1912 pump action 'trench guns' but Remington, Savage, and Stevens guns were all used. Most were pump action, but some were autoloaders. "Trench guns" (usually 20" or so barrel, cylinder choke) featured barrel jackets for better cooling, a sling, and a bayonet lug for the M1917 sword bayonet (same used on the M1917 Enfield rifle).

As to the tactical side of their use, this is well covered in Eric M. Bergerud's Pacific War book, Touched With Fire. Much combat in the Pacific was at extremely close ranges, and as any police officer will tell you a shotgun will really rip a close target. The slugs could go through an engine cylinder block, and a shotgun was ideal for stopping a crazed Jap on a banzai. Like the Tommy gun, shotguns also cut right through thick jungle brush and still did damage. Shotguns are famous intimidators, and along with flamethrowers they were one of the very few weapons the Japanese were genuinely afraid of. James Jones' fine novel The Thin Red Line (forget the movie, read the book) has a horrifying account of what a shotgun could do in action. They had their drawbacks, too, of course; they were essentially civilian and police weapons and so not particularly robust, and moisture in the shell casings was a real problem. I don't know how users dealt with the slow reload, maybe they just had to accept it. I do know that if I found myself leading a patrol in the South Pacific in 1943 I would want at least one shotgun in the party.

I can't remember where I read it but UK guys liked the auto shot guns in the far east. Shotguns are they not against the Genevieve convention?? something about wounds and weapons.