Normandy Memorial Trust

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Ramiles, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  2. Marks

    Marks Senior Member

    The Roll of Honour seems pretty accurate, although I passed on to them two flyers missing from their roll of honour :-

    0-886275 LT Cameron Oliver EVANS USAAF 78 Sqn 7-6-1944 Halifax MZ577 (Americans on British Squadrons, also RNAF, French, Belgian, Polish etc listed)

    55957 P/O Charles CUSACK RAF DoW 30-7-1944 420 Sqn Halifax NA528 crashed UK (British on Canadian Squadrons listed)

    Mark

    Update 19-7-2019

    Both casualties accepted, Lt Evans name will be added to the addenda panel as the panels for 7-6-1944 have already been manufactured !

    P/O Cusack name will be listed with the casualties for the 30-7-1944

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    I wonder if they will be look to do memorials for all the major actions of WW2.?
    Have the other Allies done the same thing?
     
  4. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    My blood is starting to boil.

    Normandy is once again the focus and, it seems, other key anniversaries are largely ignored. What about the 75th anniversary of the Fourth Battle of Cassino? Allied soldiers endured some horrors there but I cannot find a House of Commons Briefing Note on that.

    Annoyed of York
     
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  5. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    I visited Normandy for the first time last summer. While the Americans have their cemetery at Omaha Beach and several museums, and the Canadians have their information centre at Juno, other than a few scattered monuments and a cluster of stuff around Pegasus Bridge, I was surprised how little attention is given to the British contribution to D-Day and the Battle for Normandy. I think the proposed memorial and info centre will act as a good focus point to address this.

    Yes, there may be other battlefield that also deserve a memorial, but I don't think that should be used as a reason to oppose the Normandy memorial.
     
  6. PaulE

    PaulE Senior Member

    I contacted the Trust by e mail and asked them the following question having had no reply via their FB page. The question related to whether those who were wounded in Normandy and subsequently died of those wounds back in the UK would be remembered on the Memorial as they are also men who were kiilled by the fighting in Normandy .

    Pte James Both , 10th Bn DLI seriously wounded in Normandy 27th July 1944 and died at home as a result of those wounds on 1st October 1944 , now buried at Gravesend . On his Headstone the epitaph is the following " My darling husband died of wounds received in Normandy , Love's greatest gift Remembrance " Are James Both and the others like him going to be " Remembered " on the Memorial ?
     
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  7. PaulE

    PaulE Senior Member

    Here is the reply !

    In reply to your question, the Trust intends and hopes that the memorial will be the national focus for remembering the British participation in the Normandy campaign as a whole, and it will represent all those who served during the battle, whether they died later in the war or indeed survived the war entirely. The main source for the roll of honour has been the information held by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission,which does not record the date of wounding in cases where individuals died of wounds some time later. Since the names on the memorial are listed day-by-day under date of death, the Trust had to select an end date for inclusion on the memorial. The date chosen is 31 August 1944which is slightly later than the dates typically thought of as the end of the Battle of Normandy (around 21-25 August: there is no single ‘official’ end date). This date was selected partly in order to include individuals who died in the last days of August from wounds suffered earlier in the battle, but it was not possible to extend the end date further into 1944.

    I hope this has answered your question. This memorial will represent Pte Both's sacrifice and will be a place of remembrance for his part in the battle and for his family to come and remember him "

    Sadly the cut off date is the 31st August and the name of anyone who died of wounds whether in a Field Hospital in France or back in the UK beyond that date will not appear on this memorial . This will leave hundreds of men from all units who are not commemorated in Normandy .

    A grant of 20 Million but anyone after the 31st August is going to be effectively forgotten .
     
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  8. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    It is clear that James will not be listed on the Memorial from their reply. Frankly Bayeux has always functioned well in this role and I will continue to query the point of a 'British' memorial that ignores the entwined Anglo-Canadian command structure and participation of Free Forces under command.

    There are several casualties like Both, including brothers.

    I am hopeful they will change their concept of the battle of Normandy. Many died before 6 June, many died after 31 August (the latter date I've never heard bandied around as the end of Normandy).

    The NMT's approach represents a woefully one dimensional take based on a deeply flawed research model, underpinned by an erroneous understanding of the campaign: ultimately doing a disservice to those who fought, died, and those who made it back but lost friends along the way.

    Disappointing doesn't really cut it to my mind, especially in an age where we can comprehend complex narratives.
     
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  9. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Have you ever been to the British Memorial Garden in Caen?

    There is a commemorative event held every year there on 5th June - one photo attached taken from last year in the rain!

    The gardens are open all the year. It is very close to the Caen Museum - there are also Canadian and American Memorial gardens close by..

    best wishes
     

    Attached Files:

  10. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Did you not visit the museum in arromanches which pretty much exclusively covers the British gold beach invasion or the museum in bayeux which also has a lot of British ww2 history.
    And not forgetting the small tilly sur seulles museum which is pretty much dedicated to British involvement?
     
  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  12. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    I am not a fan of this memorial. The campaign was started by a veteran with a bee in his bonnet and it caught a public mood. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Ever since the First World War Britain has commemorated its war dead at the memorials to the missing from each campaign. Britain and the Commonwealth has not built commemorative memorials to celebrate victories, but to morn the cost. British commemorations in Normandy have focused on the Bayeux War Cemetery and the Memorial to the Missing at Bayeux. (In Italy it is the Cassino War Cemetery, The First worl war memorials are at Thiepval for the 1916 Somme, Menin nGate and Tyne Cot at Ypres etc.) There is no need for a specifically British National memorial for D Day or Normandy.

    There were several memorials in Normandy that have been the focus of commemoration. Besides Bayeux , the NVA used to parade in front of the fine statue of Montgomery, airborne forces at Ranville, 3 Div veterans at the memorials in the Place Courbet(?) 50 Div at the cluster of memorials by Place Robert Kiln in Ver sur Mer, and the Canadians at the Banville-s-Mer Canadian cemetery etc. These were not national memorials but the focus for particular organisations.

    A new national British Memorial poses some protocol problems. Does this memorial take precedence over Bayeux WC? Or are the British (and diplomatic guests) now going to have double ration of British Normandy Remembrance? Or does this devalue the existing (Commonwealth) commemoration at Bayeux?

    I really don't like the location. Ver-Sur-Mer is ill located as a venue for major commemorative events. It fails compared with Bayeux War Cemetery, next to the dual carriageway with easy access to the Autoroutes with lots of local space for car parks, shelter and hospitality tents, lavatories etc. I can predict that any national commemorative events, will result in participants being bussed in hours before and waiting even longer to escape. Sure, other countries hold major events in awkward locations ill served by communications. such as the US Normandy Cemetery or on top of Vimy Ridge, but not by choice.
     
  13. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Many of your comments are perfectly valid as I see it except:
    1. George Batts, to my knowledge, did not want a Victory Memorial...and it's not a Victory Memorial because it's main purpose is to name those lost in the Normandy Campaign.
    2. While Ver sur Mer is not the ideal location (what is), it at least brings together all the names which no single Cemetery can do and is, in that respect, fulfilling the same role as the US Cemetery above Omaha Beach and the Canadian facility next to Juno Beach.

    The only downside as I see it is that it yet again focuses on the Beaches and the Normandy Campaign didn't stop at the Beaches by any means as we all here know.
     
  14. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    All of the men lost in the Normandy Campaign are commemorated either on graves or on the Bayeux Memorial. A quick reference guide in one central location close to the beaches is inconsistent with the principles established by the Imperial War Graves Commission in the First World War. It suggests that visitors don't need to bother visiting the actuial graves because we have brought the names together for you at a place convenient to your D Day focused visit. If you want to find the names in one place they are on www.cwgc.org.

    The Canadian interpretation centre at Juno Beach is not the same thing at all. It is an interpretation centre to showcase Canada's role in the war on a key location form Canadians. It is the equivalent of the Vimy Ridge Centre or the Sir John Monash Centre at Villers Bretonneaux for the Australians.

    The US Normandy Cemetery above Omaha beach is not the only US War cemetery with war dead from the Normandy Campaign. There is another at St James. About half of US War dead were repatriated and buried inn the USA. It is not the same.

    The CWGC war cemeteries also contain the graves of allies who fought under British Command and fell in the field. Are those included on this memorial? Bayeux and several other cemeteries also include German war dead, whose presence is a reminder that the war time enemy was human, and no longer an enemy.
     
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  15. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Just to add the idea of a memorial in stone about who should be included in the Normandy Campaign is fraught with unnecessary complications about who should be included and who has been missed off.

    All this stems from the idea that the men who fell in D Day and its aftermath deserve more recognition than other war dead. Those who fell did their bit. Almost all of the war dead were mourned by someone. (The only exception might be 6105471 Gunner Kemp, Ernest James Royal Artillery who died on 6th June 1944, and commemorated on the Brookwood Memorial to the Missing. He was executed for rape and murder on that day, but I guess his mum would have still mourned his death.)

    If they had wanted to put anything on the Ver Sur Mer site, a decent interpretation centre is overdue. There is nothing in Normandy comparable to the Juno Centre that explains the British role in WW2 and the Liberation of Europe or a Commonwealth view of the Normandy Campaign.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    To simply sum it up

    All the Commonwealth casualties from the D Day timeline are remembered either by burial of the body or where no body was found they are commemorated on a memorial.

    Whilst D Day was as most people think the end game in hitlers defeat the opinion of many is why should all the names be on a memorial to the battle of D Day (simple terminology on my part) whilst other battles have not gained this status.Although Battle of Britain Monument - Battle of Britain Monument in London

    As mentioned there will be names missed off for a few reasons which will cause family hurt.


    Perhaps as time moves on other battles will gain a names on a monument status or possibly not.



    Regards
    Clive
     
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  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Isn't an interpretation centre part of the next phase? I believe it is.

    On your general point about names commemoration, I agree that it can seem unfair and arbitrary. It's surely all about the context of what people want to do rather than what is 'right' etc - my Uncle George survived the War but his name is preserved for posterity on a Memorial Wall along with about 4000 others (this Memorial is located at Kinkaseki on Formosa (now Taiwan) and remembers all the POWs sent there by the Japanese)....does that mean that others have 'missed out'?
     
  18. piaf

    piaf Member

    Last Sunday we were privileged to attend the opening ceremony of the British Normandy Memorial at Ver sur Mer.

    I have a cousin who is commemorated on one of the pillars, he was a twenty year old boy who never returned to his home in Liverpool.
     

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  19. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    For Piaf, whose Cousin's name is shown in his post and also lays at rest St. Manvieu War Cemetery.

    [​IMG]

    Pictures I took at St. Manvieu War Cemetery in 2010.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  20. piaf

    piaf Member

    Thank you for posting , that was very kind of you.
    I live in Normandy so visit his grave from time to time.
     

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