Novice needs help with Grandads service records 119/268 & 92nd

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by celebman, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. PackRat

    PackRat Well-Known Member

    Ah, that fits in just right with his service record then. On the last image you posted there's a stamp that starts "A & S Gp" with 25C written after it.

    As I understand it, as the war began to draw towards a close planning began for an orderly demob of the millions in service. Each was allocated to an Age & Service group, based on how old you were and how long ago you were called up. The lower the group number, the quicker you were eligible for demob.

    My grandad's group, written on his records, was '27C' and he finally got demobbed in early April 1946. I don't know what the C refers to. Your grandad's was 25C and it looks like he was released a few months earlier.
     
  2. celebman

    celebman Member

    the only photo I have is this one, my grandad is on the left I dont know who the gent on the right is sadly
     

    Attached Files:

    Wobbler likes this.
  3. celebman

    celebman Member

    Thank you for the info, all help is greatly appreciated =)
     
  4. Giberville

    Giberville Junior Member

    Interesting to see the photos - you can clearly see the white 'Y' for Yorkshire on the shoulder 'slider'. This apparently denotes it's pre-war association with Northern Command (Formation Badges of WW2, Howard Cole).
     
  5. celebman

    celebman Member

    Unfortunately I am unable to pin point which Battery my Grandad was in as this wasn't recorded on his records just a regular conformation he was a Gunner in the 92nd.

    I know there were 3 Battery's 365, 368, 467 but finding out which one would be brilliant, would there be any way of finding this information out anywhere?
     
  6. Wobbler

    Wobbler Patron Patron

    A few here of my grandad and his comrades in the 92nd, although I’m not sure where they were taken as they were emailed to me by my cousin in Australia. I’ve asked him if they have anything written on the back but I’ve not heard back on that yet.

    I think the first could be pre-war, perhaps in Woolwich, based purely on the weather but I suppose it could be anywhere in the UK on that premise! He served in the TA, in 91st (4th London) Brigade Royal Field Artillery, from 1923-1927. He re-enlisted in the TA in 1934 and was posted to 92nd Brigade - 368th Battalion. According to a brief service summary I have from the MOD, he was embodied on 2 September 1939 and posted to 92 Field Regiment and stayed with it for the duration of the war.

    All I can say right now is the last two photos were clearly taken in warm climes, but where exactly I do not yet know.

    49D9653D-AE60-4CAD-B1EC-45C698A22898.jpeg

    A91B448E-D09D-4AA9-89CF-E8B918C85067.jpeg

    0B1E156A-20CE-4E4F-98AB-0FD47AEEC23E.jpeg
     
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  7. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    The 4 in the sign in the final picture is duplicated in Arabic.

    It's a clue, albeit a small one.

    The four is also the traditionally continental one, which could mean a French colony: take your pick.

    If I were a gambling man, I'd go for Syria; second choice Egypt.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  8. Wobbler

    Wobbler Patron Patron

    You could be bang on with Syria, Charley, thanks for the help. I would never have known that was Arabic nor that there was a distinctly continental four (embarrassing as I did French A-Level :blush:).

    Here is a snippet from that service summary, which shows he was in Iraq and the Middle East from September ‘42 to July ‘43. I’m still awaiting the full records I applied for, which should throw more light on it:

    9094DFDD-0D15-4C3A-BB9F-777D904A1724.jpeg

    Below is part of a reply I received from an Archivist at the RA Museum, which, as Giberville also mentioned, says the Regiment was indeed in Syria (and Egypt).

    95B1F2E9-EE10-421C-976B-D1A2578EA894.jpeg

    Cheers!
     
    Charley Fortnum likes this.
  9. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    You mention a brief service summary?

    Is it a typed document from MOD from over 10 years ago?

    If so you may not be aware that under Freedom of Information act MOD now provide copies of the original documents in a man’s file.

    It’s well worth asking for the original documents via this link -

    Requests for personal data and service records: a detailed guide

    Steve
     
  10. Wobbler

    Wobbler Patron Patron

    I received the letter in 1993, Steve, you’re quite correct.

    I applied for his full service records back in October and am still waiting to receive them. In January, as I’d seen they’d cashed my cheque, they told me I should expect them in June. I rather suspect that may be further delayed now.
     
  11. celebman

    celebman Member

    Hi all, I am back.

    I have been trying to work out which Bty within the 92nd Field Reg my grandad was in with no luck so far. Can anybody (fingers crossed) point me in the right direction on how to work out which Bty he was in? 365, 368, 467
    D36DED8E-1FF9-4D70-ACD0-744BBFC19F98.jpeg ED240562-A891-4933-824E-A6B68B4CE494.jpeg

    also if anyone has any photos of the 92nd I would love to see them
    Stew
     
  12. Wobbler

    Wobbler Patron Patron

    Bit late I know, and you probably already realised this anyway, but this photo must have been taken after he’d joined the 92nd, of course. I wonder if it was taken in Sicily or mainland Italy?

    With regard to which Battery your Grandad served in, I can’t see any immediately obvious indications. Mine was in 368, not that that helps, although the mentions of his Battery are on his 1934 Attestation and pre-war TA record, his Army Form B.200b (but only until he’s embodied in 1939).

    There’s a very faint 368 top right on his B 103-I form but this may not be the same for your Grandfather as he didn’t start out in 92nd Field, of course. On 103-II there are no further mentions of his Battery, just the “92 Fd”, pretty much like yours.

    Some, but not all, of the dates on my Grandad’s records mirror yours but whether this eliminates his also being in 368 Bty, I don’t know?

    Here are my Grandfather’s records for date comparison and in the first photo you will hopefully be able to make out that faint 368:

    7BC9C640-04F5-43FF-8755-A1856905B879.jpeg 615962E0-E805-4234-B5BD-896D9B20AFAE.jpeg DFD09C3A-0722-4768-822F-1A737D52EF32.jpeg

    By the way Stew, I highly recommend George Aris’s “Fifth British Division”. It’s excellent:

    Fifth by Aris - AbeBooks
     
  13. celebman

    celebman Member

    Thank you for your reply Wobbler. I had another look my grandads records but sadly nothing pointing to the battery like yours. Thanks for showing me

    wouldn’t it be great if someone put up a photo of each Bty so we could confirm lol

    Any other ideas where I could try to find this info, there surely must be a list of names for each company etc or how did they know who was where

    I am going to get the book you recommended
     
  14. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    I traced an uncle’s Field Regiment Battery following a visit to National Archives and an examination of the Field Regiment War Diary.

    He had several periods of sickness leading to absences from the unit. The weekly other ranks field return forms list him and show his battery.

    Steve
     
  15. celebman

    celebman Member

    looks like a trip to the NA thank you Steve keeps the hope alive
     
  16. Wobbler

    Wobbler Patron Patron

    Steve’s suggestion is probably your best bet. I do have copies of the 92nd’s War Diary when with the BEF for 1939-1940, obviously prior to your grandad’s time with them, but there’s nothing there indicating who served in which Battery. Unfortunately, I don’t have any of the Regiment’s Diaries from ‘43 to ‘45 so cannot comment on whether those would potentially help pin down who served in which Battery.

    Re “group” photos, I do have two with my grandad in, which you may have already seen above (post #26 in this thread) but I believe the first is pre-war, possibly taken at Woolwich. I can’t be sure exactly when the second was taken but it is clearly overseas and, therefore, during the war. If your grandad’s in it, marvellous, but it may well also have been taken before he was posted to the 92nd. And if you have already looked at it, well then, clearly your grandad’s not there.

    Mind you, random thought, maybe your grandfather’s mate is in it? That may then point, albeit tenuously, to 368?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
  17. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Well-Known Member

    119/268 refers to 119th Field Regt sister Regt to 67th Field Regt RA (TA). 268 was Dudley Battery. 265,266, 267 and 268 Batteries were all part of the 67th Field Regt but in 1939 were reorganised.
    265 Worcester and 266 Malvern Batteries stayed as the 67th Field Regt as a 1st Line Regt for service abroad in the 48th Div (later with the BEF it was transferred to the 1st Infantry Div) .
    267 Redditch and 268 Dudley became the 119th Field Regt a 2nd line unit on Home Defence and Training. It them moved to 61st Division spending some considerable time in Northern Ireland. The men were used as replacements for NW Europe.
    At least one man went to West Africa as a Sergeant training men in gunnery for the far east, having had a Road Traffic Accident driving a Quad and medically downgraded so stayed in a non combat role.
    The 119th have a memorial plaque in Worcester Cathedral.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
  18. celebman

    celebman Member

    Thank you so much for this information, a family member mentioned my grandad spent some time in Ireland during the war your info confirms this. Now I am wondering how he ended up in Egypt then placed with the 92nd .. so many questions lol
     
  19. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Well-Known Member

    The 119th as part of the 61st Div was a training unit. It seems that they were sending out men when trained to the 67th early in the war in Tunisia and Italy but in 1944 North West Europe took priority.
    He was no doubt posted to the 92nd as they needed trained Artillerymen at the time.
    The 119th was the recipient of most new men recruited in 1939. After the Munic Crisis recruiting took off with huge numbers of men volunteering, more than could be rapidly trained or equipped due to the Army being run down over the years before the war. They needed either training due to lack of experience, were temporarily unfit for front line war service or over the desirable age for combat but experienced enough to train the recruits to war standard.
    They also took a large number of "Immature" soldiers who were old enough to sign up but not go abroad, keeping them trained and efficient until needed by front line units.
    Some of the men had achieved promotion to higher ranks during this time being given Officer Cadet Training or promoted having been trained as NCO's.
    Many Territorial Regiments followed this policy set by the War Office and is why so many Regiments are relatively unknown to current students of WW2 as the records are not so easy to find, having only been in existence for a coupe of years at the most.
    There are a few men on the CWGC lists who died as 119th Field Regt in France in 1944 which I believe were sent to unload Ammunition sent to Normandy etc. Others are buried close to home in the UK having died due to illness or accidents.
    Most were posted elsewhere so appear under their posted Regiments.
    Researchers on this site might wish to follow this up.
    I have retired from this sort of thing but as no one responded to your posted title, I felt I could assist.

    For more info on the 119th try Worcester Archive in The Hive Worcester if you can get there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
  20. Uncle Target

    Uncle Target Well-Known Member

    The photo in posting #26 displays either upgraded 18 pounders or early 25 pounders most of which I believe were lost in the Dunkirk Campaign 1940.
    Derek Barton would know more about them. They may help in dating the photograph probably taken in the UK looking at the brickwork behind and mud on the floor.
    The uniforms look to be late 1939 issue as from memory the 67th received battle dress circa November 1939.
    I've not read the whole thread.
     

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