As requested by Tom, this is the e-mail from Ann Dear Friends, I am the bearer of bad news I'm afraid. Last Friday evening I received an email from my Liasion Canon at Westminster Abbey. It would seem that as we are not 'official' the MOD has vetoed our request to hold a private, small Commemoration Service in the Nave of the Abbey to enable those Veterans who, for whatever reason, were not able to go to Italy to attend the Commemoration Services on Monday 19th May at Monte Cassino to pay their respects to both their fallen comrades and the Campaign as a whole. I have today been in contact with the MOD to ask, if our Italy Campaign Veterans were not 'official' what the hell were they doing in Italy? No-one was prepared to answer that question, they were all too busy preparing for the D-Day Commemorations at the end of this week!! Suffice to say, I am not prepared to let the matter drop, we WILL become 'official' whatever that may mean and I will let you all know the outcome. In the meantime a more friendly contact has a Italy Campaign Veteran (A famous Chelsea Pensioner) residing at the Royal Hospital Chelsea and he is prepared to approach their Chaplin and Lt. Govenor to ask if we might be able to hold the Service there. Again I will advise as and when there is more information forthcoming. With my best wishes Ann Liberation of Rome 4th June 1944 Walk around the mountains in the mud and rain You'll find those scattered crosses, some of which bear no name Heartbreak and Toil and suffering gone The boys beneath, they slumber on The were the D-Day Dodgers, left out in Italy
I'm ready for this challenge..but I can go on a bit, though (so you can tell me to shut up..) .. no doubt, Ron, Gerry, Tom and others who were actually there will continue to write with their personal memories and reflections. By the way, Tom, I did recently visit the village of Piumarola, following in the footsteps of the 17th Battalion of the 21st Lancers (sic). and the 16th Battalion of the 5th Lancers (double sic). R... A........ was nowhere to be seen. Can I claim my Pulitzer now? best
Still confused as to where the actual difficulty lies. Was it a requirement of Westminster Abbey itself then that an already privately arranged service, held the weekend after Remembrance Sunday, be sanctioned by MOD? Or do the MOD have an automatic say in the scheduling of any military-related services held there, on Church property? [hr] PS I edited this link into an earlier post as it was too late last night to go looking for the thread I had in mind ... BBC reports of Italian campaign were regularly relayed to some troops in NWE ... http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/33691-war-diary-5th-battalion-coldstream-guards-jan-dec-1944/page-2
Extract from a letter home from a member of 76th H.A.A. Regt on 5 June 1944 - I'm sure nearly everyone knows what happened on 6th June 1944, but very few seem to know what happened on 5th June, or the relevance and contribution of the Italian theatre to final defeat of Hitler. The last words are somewhat prophetic, especially in light of the foregoing above: "All the news lately that at least things are going on their way at long last has gradually worked us up into a very excited fever pitch. Now today we have the official news that Rome has fallen, and that we’re well on our way. To you at home it will be grand news, and there must be a very high feeling that at last the war is being fought to smash the Hun completely. To us it’s a relief. For ages now it seems we’ve been hanging on and that all promises of “getting cracking” have been little more than a means of cheering us up because things were becoming so ‘um drum. So when at last we do see that not only have we had all this time in preparation, but we also see that things are going well it’s like having waited to have a tooth out. Now it’s out, and feeling a lot better. The fall of Rome has led to enormous celebrations. The people in the nearby village are really jubilant. The old church next door with one good bell and several cracked relics has been like a mad thing clanking away for hours, so that bats and birds long since living in peace in the belfry – at least since the noise of shell and shot took several corners out of it and broke all the windows – have taken flight in crazy circles. Roger wound his way into the belfry and was banging away at a very decrepit affair that sounded like he was hitting a piece of metal. Apparently the bells are lucky to still be there, and show scars of battle. We have inaugurated a canteen at B.H.Q. since it is impossible for the blokes to go out anywhere to celebrate. Bill was given the task of stocking the place, and up to going to press it’s going like anything. The O.C. is giving us a barrel of 100 litres of wine, which is a very decent gesture and will set him back oodles. I’d give so much if you were with me. It’s the sort of thing we should be together over. We’ve shared all the losses and retreats together, but never seem to have been able to celebrate these sorts of days. Still, I feel it’s all helping for that Day of Days when we shall be together for keeps. And now I suppose we shall hear even greater things ‘ere long. Things that will make us “back page boys”."
Surely there were more than a few wry jokes told about Mark Clark being upstaged only a day after his triumphant entry.... err, "Allied entry" ! http://www.britishpathe.com/video/entry-into-rome/query/01184000 At the risk of upsetting some, the Far East gets my vote for the Cinderella of the war. I joined this forum knowing very little in general about WW2 but that particular theatre, despite the efforts of a determined group of forum members, still remains a personal unexplored territory.
I notice that nations and cities in NW Europe are planning various events to mark the 70th Anniversary of the liberation of various localities throughout the year. My friend from Old Hickory is going to the festivities in Limburg, Netherlands this September. Is the City of Rome or the nation of Italy observing any formal, government-sanctioned acknowledgements of the events in that city or country?
Diane There is NO doubt that the Far East was even more ignored than the Italian Campaign - nevertheless - the fault still lies on the desks of the media editors - nothing we could do about that as we couldn't do anything about our own problem……surprised that you consider that the people in NWE knew all about our battles in Italy and then quote a series of one liners - less than the accounts of the Russians in the short lived Coldstream's…bulletin If you were to read Ann's note to me it is VERY plain that she states that she had arranged a small PRIVATE service in the Abbey - as agreed by the Liaison deacon - THEN the MOD butted in with the veto as being unofficial- to my way of thinking PRIVATE means unofficial as she did NOT invite the MOD to participate - the fact that they financed Prince Harry's OFFICIAL trip to Cassino with the Tax payers money had nothing to do with Ann's arrangement with the Abbey- using OUR money The MOD will be telling us next when to buy our groceries - and where - THAT is why we shall fight them on the beaches etc ….. Cheers
I would suggest that there would be hundreds of commemorative anniversary events in each part of the country... just look at this listing from the Liri as an example http://www.gustavline.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=34&Itemid=156&lang=en Of course, in 1944 the liberation of Rome wasn't really a strategic objective at all (except for one or two people, perhaps). Most of the fighting Allied forces just bypassed the city and continued fighting northwards.. not saying that for the people of Rome, themselves, the liberation of the city wasn't important.
Much as I can agree with a couple of your points Tom, I still fail to follow, from the information provided, exactly how MOD could veto a private ceremony, already arranged between the church and those proposing it. Why/how were the MOD involved at all? Who went to them for their opinion? I doubt they trawl the internet or church calendars on the off chance. It seems to me that the label unofficial was applied by MOD not to the campaign, as per the title of this thread, or to the veterans of that campaign, but to the organisation associated with the website ??
Jeff The City of Rome - perhaps Italy - made a big fuss of the recent commemoration of the 70 anniversary of the Cassino battles - but then again Prince Harry was there - might have made a difference… Cheers
I think the organisation in question is listed (edit - actually it's not, see below) amongst the acknowledgements on the service sheet for the Cassino event on 19th May 2014.
I never said "all about" Tom. I think it'd be a very poor show of hands from those who'd claim to know everything about everything. I gave examples of BBC headlines running almost daily in printed news sheet form - abbreviated no doubt, for the benefit of those PBI who prob had no access to wireless sets; showing reports which were considered relevant and of interest despite their own preoccupations, esp considering the fact that many units had sister bns in the theatre. Italy was surely not forgotten, it was overtaken by other events... nothing new there. I should think that mention of Russian advances were somewhat pertinent also...More lines? Bigger territory etc, wasn't it.
Tom. Just to correct your point about the MoD funding HRH Prince Harry's visit to Cassino. It was, in fact, funded by the Foreign Office rather than the MoD. Regards Frank
Frank it was still your tax money no matter which department spent it - we had arranged a PRIVATE service funded by ourselves when the MOD butted in with their OFFICIAL rubbish- and if you can support that - then things are worse then I have feared in the UK - no doubt we shall have Muslim and other's religious holidays very soon also in what was a Christian Country as you have Muslim NO GO areas already….the Brits should be screaming their heads off… Cheers
Hi Frank, Going by what Lesley said it was money well spent. Glad it was Prince Harry in attendance and not his older brother & sister-in-law... given all the guff that usually gets printed about them, ie not about the events they attend.
Tom. Steady on, you are coming across as a bigot. I have a lot of Muslim friends and they are all terrific chaps. Not every Muslim is a terrorist and most are appalled by what is being done by a crazy few in their name. All my chums are generous to a fault, hospitable and far, far more educated than many Britons that I come across. I do not approve of the MoD preventing veterans from acknowledging the 70th Anniversary at Westminster Abbey - if they indeed have. I suspect that if the Dean of Westminster wants to host a ceremony in the Abbey then it has nothing to do with the MoD. If those celebrating the anniversary want a military band, a bugler, a guard of honour and a VIP then that becomes an MoD issue. If this is the sticking point then I support the MoD line. The MoD, led by a very able Military Attaché in Rome, laid on a brilliant ceremony at Cassino. In doing so, no expense was spared. Regards Frank
No mention in the 4th Recce war Diaries of Normandy Invasion. But on the 7th, my late Fathers "B" Squadron patrolled forward past Guidonia and St Angelo Romano, losing two Heavy Armoured Cars to mines, but no casualties. Regards Tom
Last week, I was privileged to have the opportunity to visit the Cassino CWGC Cemetery and have enough time (three hours) to walk past each of the 4000 grave markers and read the 4000 + names on the 24 memorial panels whilst noting the range of nationalities and cultural diversities of the men lying at peace or memorialised: Of course, British, Irish, Australian, Canadian, Indian (pre partition), New Zealanders, South Africans, Cypriots, Nepalese and one Soviet soldier and... At the very least, there were Christians (Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox and others), Jewish, Muslim, Hindus and Buddhists, and no doubt quite a number without adherence... Quite remarkable indeed....truly a United Nations A couple of examples are attached: best,
Richard. You should read 'Empire of the Dead' by David Crane. It is the fascinating story of how the CWGC was created. Truly impressive. Frank
