"the Guards were with 6th Armoured all the way through" - NO they weren't - they took over from the 38th Irish Bde after the fighting was ended in Tunisia - three Guards bde were in and out of 6th Armoured like yo-yo's 1st -201st -24th -finally replaced by 61st Inf.bde. JB: Well Welsh Guards were certanly at Hammam Lif as part of 6h Armoued Its a bourne battle honour. Along with Cassino. the 51st Highland debacle Welsh Guards. (Still part of 6th Armoured) landed innaples and moved up to the line at Cassino They did not fight at Cerosolo - JB: Well they were actually. They relieved the Hampshire Regiment and got relieved by Coldsteam Guards after a fierce hand to hand bayonet fight. A Coldstreamer website describes the summit . "A sad place with nothing but dead bodies and Welsh Guardsmen covered in blood"! Its spelt...Cerasola. Dad pronounced it as Cherisola they went on to Cassino station - not Cassino per se....that was by 4th Indian - Poles - Kiwis and 78th Div.... JB: Quite probably. After the US Bombing of the town. My Dad was seriously wounded due to his officer slipping on the rubble of the town. Not to be confused with the Battle of Monte Cassino. 6th Armoured certainly passed Aquino - Pontecorvo - Arce - Frosinone in the Operation Diadem ...... There may have been Guards fighting with 56th Div at Batapaglia on Salerno beaches - BUT it was NOT the 6th Armoureds lot of 1st Guards.. JB: Yes dad fought at Battaglia too. And I have the Battalian photo of him just prior to the Battle of Perugia So - you see - you have a bit more studying to do before your trip and you can save yourself miles in unnecessary travel..... Cheers[/QUOTE] JB: He will be with me and I have recorded all Dads tales Dad finished in a town called Villach, near Klaganfurt. Best time of the war swimming in the Austrian Lakes
Welsh Guards as part of 1st Guards Brigade (6th Armoured Division) had the last shots of WW2 in Italy on Friday 27th April 1945. After crossing the Adige River They then made their way to Villach near Klagenfurt for R&R I have many reference books. Welsh Guards at War, History of the Welsh Guards and my Dad I have the entire Roll of Honour of All Ranks and Honours and Awards 3 WG never had a Colour but used the Company Colour of the Training Battalian from where it came from. It earned the highest amount of Battle Honours than any other Welsh Guards Bn From Udine on May 5th 1945 Major General H. Murray.DSOaddressed a special order of the day. To the 6th Armoured Divisionin the course of which he said: "Seldom in a campaign of the magnatutude of the Italian Campaign has one formation contributed in such great measure to final victory" In this Division both in Africa and Italy the 3rd Battalion Welsh Guards had the honour to serve.
NO they weren't - they took over from the 38th Irish Bde after the fighting was ended in Tunisia - three Guards bde were in and out of 6th Armoured like yo-yo's 1st -201st -24th -finally replaced by 61st Inf.bde. The 1st (guards) Brigade was in the 6th armoured all the way through italy until febuary 1945. It is true the 78/6th swapped brigades in Tunisia. It has been suggested this was due to personal differences, however its more likely that the guards brigade was used to operating independently and already had a fair degree of motorization. For instance it left the 78th Div to work with the 6th as Sbiba to turn back Rommels "kasserine" offensive. In Feb the 2nd Bn coldstream was then taken out and moved to the 24th guards brigade, 56th (Black Cats) London division. I have no idea what happened to the 3WG after the break up. Prior to this, at each stage of the Yo-yoing in early 1944 they were told that they were still attached to the 6th armoured, but had been lent to different Divisional sectors. Technically they never left the division completely. yes they fought in Hamman Lif (actually Djebel Rorouf to the south of the town)and Battaglia. I just interviewed a veteran who was in both of these attacks. They were in Cassino twice, once at the station, and I believe on the right of the city (including the castle) for the second time. They were never on the offensive during their time in the city. Unless your family member was transferred to another division they would not have taken part in any amphibious operations
Hello and welcome to the forum bwg3coy I'm assuming that you are 'JB' - SB's Dad - is that correct? Are you responding to Tom Canning's comments in your first post? I realise that the forum posting system takes a little getting used to, so I just want to get some clarity. Regards, Diane "the Guards were with 6th Armoured all the way through" - NO they weren't - they took over from the 38th Irish Bde after the fighting was ended in Tunisia - three Guards bde were in and out of 6th Armoured like yo-yo's 1st -201st -24th -finally replaced by 61st Inf.bde. They did not fight at Cerosolo - they went on to Cassino station - not Cassino per se....that was by 4th Indian - Poles - Kiwis and 78th Div.... 6th Armoured certainly passed Aquino - Pontecorvo - Arce - Frosinone in the Operation Diadem ...... There may have been Guards fighting with 56th Div at Batapaglia on Salerno beaches - BUT it was NOT the 6th Armoureds lot of 1st Guards...
The 1st (guards) Brigade was in the 6th armoured all the way through italy until febuary 1945. It is true the 78/6th swapped brigades in Tunisia. It has been suggested this was due to personal differences, however its more likely that the guards brigade was used to operating independently and already had a fair degree of motorization. For instance it left the 78th Div to work with the 6th as Sbiba to turn back Rommels "kasserine" offensive. JB: Yes Dad told me about the 51st HD So called Mutiny that 6th Armoured refused to Acknowledge and the guys won. 51st had fought all the way from Cairo and did not need that. I digress! In Feb the 2nd Bn coldstream was then taken out and moved to the 24th guards brigade, 56th (Black Cats) London division. I have no idea what happened to the 3WG after the break up. JB: Always patched up with 'Mailed Fist' from entry to war to end of war. Prior to this, at each stage of the Yo-yoing in early 1944 they were told that they were still attached to the 6th armoured, but had been lent to different Divisional sectors. Technically they never left the division completely. JB: I think that was common practice. As it is today. probably on loan from 6th Armoured yes they fought in Hamman Lif (actually Djebel Rorouf to the south of the town)and Battaglia. I just interviewed a veteran who was in both of these attacks. JB: Yep I went there to see it and visit Medjes El Bab CWGs and Enfedaville to see the 3WG War Graves They were in Cassino twice, once at the station, and I believe on the right of the city (including the castle) for the second time. They were never on the offensive during their time in the city. Unless your family member was transferred to another division they would not have taken part in any amphibious operations JB: I agree with you. My dad did not take part in any Beach Landing. He went by Troop ship to Naples and they re grouped for Cassino Irish Guards did at Anzio but that was not 6th Armoured
DBf - I do realise that I am getting on a bit and my memory cannot compete with actual war diaries - and other historical facts and figures of which the forum appears to becoming inundated with for some time now, which appears to be making the memories of the existing WW2 veterans somewhat redundant.....but what is puzzling to me is that a thread starts off with a poster promoting a new site apparently in all innocence and then asking for help - then in the midst of this thread - he reappears in a different guise - with all the answers !.....how did you figure out that he was in fact JB- son of SB ?.........who ? Amazing stuff....but confusing ! Cheers
DBf - I do realise that I am getting on a bit and my memory cannot compete with actual war diaries - and other historical facts and figures of which the forum appears to becoming inundated with for some time now, which appears to be making the memories of the existing WW2 veterans somewhat redundant.....but what is puzzling to me is that a thread starts off with a poster promoting a new site apparently in all innocence and then asking for help - then in the midst of this thread - he reappears in a different guise - with all the answers !.....how did you figure out that he was in fact JB- son of SB ?.........who ? Amazing stuff....but confusing ! Cheers Dear Tom, you know fine rightly all you lot are irreplaceable. I guessed, but here's the confirmation. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/user-introductions/30199-hi-all.html
DBF - Thanks for that Dianne but I still don't understand why the double intro ...I do also recognise that sometimes the truth is relative to many people - but I prefer the objective truth - I know - I'm old fashioned? Cheers
Ahh I see Tom, I think They're 2 different people, father and son (son and grandson of a 3WG Veteran), not someone reappearing in a "different guise." Is that what you were wondering?
Dianne - I see that you have the Irish ability to read the signs which are invisible to us mere mortals - I'll take your word for it but one appears to have more knowledge than the other.....do they talk to each other - I wonder. ? Cheers
Dianne - I see that you have the Irish ability to read the signs which are invisible to us mere mortals - I'll take your word for it but one appears to have more knowledge than the other.....do they talk to each other - I wonder. ? Cheers Hi Tom. Sorry bout all this. It is my dad indeed. Told him about this community of what some may call gold dust. He is much more knowledgable but lives quite far away. Also wanted to utilise another great source. Also things have been suggested that I would never have even asked about. I would like to thank you all. I am definately humbled. Si
s - bonnewel no need to feel humbled - it's just that I am getting older by the day and - possibly(sic) - not quite as sharp as I was and thus easily confused - my main thought was to save you a trip to Salerno as the WG - or any other unit of 6th Armoured never fought there - as I pointed out not all of the 6th were landed at the same time - at Naples as there wasn't the shipping to lift them all at once....we all had the problem. Cheers
s - bonnewel no need to feel humbled - it's just that I am getting older by the day and - possibly(sic) - not quite as sharp as I was and thus easily confused - my main thought was to save you a trip to Salerno as the WG - or any other unit of 6th Armoured never fought there - as I pointed out not all of the 6th were landed at the same time - at Naples as there wasn't the shipping to lift them all at once....we all had the problem. Cheers Hiya Tom and all. I should have introduced myself here also. Sorry guys Yes I am John Bonnewell. I am 59. I live in Carmarthenshire Wales. I served in the Welsh Guards myself in 1967. My father John William Bonnewell served in 3WG from begining to end. I worshipped my old Dad who sadly died in 1998 and I miss him so. He told me many first hand stories about his time in Italy. I have photos if only knew how to add them here. I have a video of the Regiments visit to Fondouk and Hamam lif if anyone wants to borrow or copy. As I said earlier I went there myself recently My son Simon, who introduced me to this forum was also a Welsh Guardsman So may I humbly oppologise for the confusion May I also add that I honour all the guys who served under the Original 'Mailed Fist' as my dad proudly refered to it If only I could organise a get together or stat a Mailed Fist Association? I think that may be a step too far though
s - bonnewel no need to feel humbled - it's just that I am getting older by the day and - possibly(sic) - not quite as sharp as I was and thus easily confused - my main thought was to save you a trip to Salerno as the WG - or any other unit of 6th Armoured never fought there - as I pointed out not all of the 6th were landed at the same time - at Naples as there wasn't the shipping to lift them all at once....we all had the problem. Cheers Was the Naples Harbour bombed and sunken shipping left to cause problems?
BWG 3coy The Germans had a field day in the demolition of Naples not only the docks but the sewer and water systems - the docks could only handle troops and not heavy eauipment for the longest time owing the the sunken ships etc - the sewers and water took less time but a lot of damage was done and the engineers and hygene people had to disinfect EVERY member of the population area by area - which took a great deal of time but cut down the infection rate - otherwise cholera might have taken hold... Cheers
BWG 3coy The Germans had a field day in the demolition of Naples not only the docks but the sewer and water systems - the docks could only handle troops and not heavy eauipment for the longest time owing the the sunken ships etc - the sewers and water took less time but a lot of damage was done and the engineers and hygene people had to disinfect EVERY member of the population area by area - which took a great deal of time but cut down the infection rate - otherwise cholera might have taken hold... Cheers JB: Not a lot changes then Tom. Just like Basra in the 90s. British Army disinfected and restarted the Water and sewr supply there. Why did the British not land elswhere? Were there no other landing or Dock sites? For instance could Anzio may have been a better deal to go around Cassino?
German airpower restricted movement along the coast, further towards Tunis. It was later stated by General Anderson that it was one of his regrets of the theatre that they did not conduct landings further east, but whether this was possible given the german air cover is uncertain. I'll let the veterans answer the Anzio question. That's a can of worms and a half.
Bwg3coy Anzio was not a port - it was only a beach - and as Phaethon says - the Lufwaffe was still an item at that time and they were very active - if you look at a map of Southern Italy you will find that the nearest port was at Taranto miles away to the South or Bari - even further away on the other coast- so there very little choice and it was Infantry at Naples - Tanks and Artillery at Taranto. The Allied Air forces did become top dog - after most of the Luftwaffe was withdrwn to protect Germany. Anzio might have been handled better with an aggressive commander but his boss had told him not to stick his neck out - and he didn't ! Cheers
