Operation Market Garden (The lorry thread)

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by airborne medic, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Wonderful, Tom. Would be better with sound though :)
     
  2. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    These IWM films are a gold mine for Austin K5 spotting! And fascinating footage all round to be fair.

    LANDINGS ON 'GOLD' BEACH, 6 AND 7 JUNE 1944 (PART 2) [Allocated Title]

    Around minute 4.25 in this case:

    IWM - A70 33-2 - Austin K5 - 69 Brigade.JPG

    The caption talks about 69th Brigade supporting assault units in C13 marshalling camp near Winchester. The next part shows 50th Division lorries with a serial number of 61 and the caption mentions 6th Green Howards, does that make sense? I can't make out the markings on the Austins but assume they either belonged to the 6th Green Howards or perhaps the Beach Group that landed on the same beach?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    '61' on green would indicate the middle battalion of the middle brigade. In 50 Div that could indeed be 6th Green Howards of 69 Brigade. It's interesting that all these K5s are with front line units and not with L of C RASC.
     
  4. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi Rich,

    I think that is where Chester Wilmot has misled historians for all this time.

    I have only found a couple of L of C RASC GT companies that used Austin K5s and these were the ones that were part of the assault force and therefore equipped with 4 x 4 3-ton vehicles. Other GT companies had 4 x 2 3-ton or had 6-ton or 10-ton load vehicles.

    These IWM films and scraps of information gleaned from unit war diaries are beginning to build up into quite a body of evidence to dispute Wilmot's rather casual assumptions.

    BTW any idea what the serial number 75 from the previous example indicates?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  5. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    75 on Black was 174 Field Ambulance RAMC.
     
  6. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi, 51H,

    Thanks - so a Field Ambulance.

    I think that you can see the 3rd Division sign on the left front mudguard, so this would have been a 3rd Division Field Ambulance (8, 9 or 223).

    More files to look into.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  7. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi, interestingly for those of us obsessed with Austin K5's (that's me!) from a film posted by Michel Sabarly I caught sight of this beastie - called an Austin K3 in the caption, but surely another K5?

    IWM - A70 43-4 - Austin K5 - 149 Fd Amb.JPG

    Source is IWM A70 43-4 about 50 seconds in. The caption does tag it 149 Field Ambulance - does anyone know which brigade that supported, I'm guessing either 69 or 239 Bdes which led the assault.

    Regards

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
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  8. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    And another K5 - this time in Sicily:

    Source is IWM film AYY 502/2/2.

    IWM - AYY 502-2-2 - Austin K5 - Sicily - 13-14 Jul 43 - Palazzolo Acreide Station.JPG

    London Scottish troops?

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Great stuff, Tom. Thats an a/t portee but being used for cargo. I don't know what the GS conversion entailed. A damned fine looking lorry !
     
  10. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    And another one in Sicily - this time being used as a 6-pdr A/tk portee - AYY 502/6. The caption says 17th Infantry Brigade.

    INVASION OF SICILY [Allocated Title]

    IWM - AYY-502-6- Austin K5 ATK - Sicily - 17 Inf Bde.JPG

    IWM - AYY-502-6- Austin K5 ATk rear - 17 Infantry Brigade.JPG

    I must look into why the infantry units in NW Europe towed their 6-pdr anti-tank guns with those horrible carriers when they had these magnificent lorries to do the job!

    Regards

    Tom
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    2nd Northamptons were part of 17th Brigade and there is a section in 'A History of the 58th' which deals with the anti-tank platoon. They went all the way through without ever engaging German armour !

    Not too complimentary about the a/t portees...'rather useless'. There is no mention of unreliability though, simply that they were not easy to get into position.

    Afbeelding (301).jpg
     
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  12. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    Thanks. I guess that a 3-ton Portee was fine for desert but increasingly unwieldy and vulnerable in closer country. As seen on AYY 502/1/6 - apparently hit by mortar fire.

    upload_2018-4-8_17-13-40.png


    BTW re Austin K5 and the L of C, I've done quite a bit of tying up my sources this weekend and found a reference in the war diary of 4 L of C Sub Area ST Branch to a total of six 3-ton 4 x 4 GT companies that were converted from 4 x 2 specifically for the early stages in Normandy. These were:

    39 Coy (GT) 3-ton 4 x 4 (ashore complete 1800 hrs 12 Jun) (CRASC 21 Tpt Coln)
    282 Coy (GT) 3-ton 4 x 4 (ashore complete 1800 hrs 12 Jun) (CRASC 30 Tpt Coln)
    305 Coy (GT) 3-ton 4 x 4 (ashore complete 1800 hrs 12 Jun) (CRASC 28 Tpt Coln)

    435 Coy (GT) 3-ton 4 x 4 (ashore complete 1800 hrs 12 Jun)
    706 Coy (GT) 3-ton 4 x 4 (ashore incomplete 1800 hrs 12 Jun)
    551 Coy (GT) 3-ton 4 x 4 (ashore incomplete 1800 hrs 12 Jun)

    Looking at their war diaries, we find:

    Of these, only one (305 Coy) was equipped entirely with Austin K5. Two (39 and 282) were equipped with a mixture (39 - Chevrolet, Ford and Austin; 282 - Ford and Austin). I think that these latter two may have had one platoon equipped with Austins for the initial assault.

    The other three coys (435, 706 and 551) were all equipped with Ford 4 x 4 G.S.

    Other RASC companies were also equipped with Austins including 524 Coy (50 Div) and some of the Armoured Brigade companies, but none would have been on the L of C.

    It is also worthy of note that all 305 Coy's Austins were replaced by Bedford OY 4 x 2 from 10 - 14 Sep 44 because "All task vehs of Coy having completed approx 5000 miles since landing in NORMANDY, considerable engine wear is apparent, particularly with regard to bore and piston rings with consequent heavy oil consumption and unreliability." [Source: WO171/2433]

    I appears that Chester Wilmot has led a lot of people astray over the years.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Tom, have we seen this one before ?

    Austin K5 Mulberry.png

     
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  14. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    No, not seen that one before - thanks. It appears that there is a four letter serial on the right front mud guard - with a stripe through the whole sign. I can't make it out, any ideas?

    upload_2018-4-10_19-23-28.png

    I'll have another look at the IWM films to see if there is one that tallies with this one.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The diagonal bottom left to top right indicates Army Group Troops. Most of the four-figure serials listed in Hodges & Taylor seem to be 21st Army Group Troops - REME, RA, RE and quite a number of RASC. The harbour looks quite well-established. It would be difficult to pin down by date. Quality is awful on these Pathé uploads.
     
  16. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,


    Thanks - "Hodges & Taylor"? It sounds like I might need to get a copy of that.

    I guess L of C RASC GT Coys would be covered by Army Group Troops?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  17. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    If you do, Tom make sure it is indeed the updated version as Michael D. Taylor's addenda is larger than the original book. The main (but incomplete) 21st Army Group lists are in the older book though. It doesn't 'number' any of the GT Coys unfortunately. It really was my bible as a markings book until Andrew Foulkes produced his BEF listings. The BEF stuff remains my main focus (although if it's British, square and ugly then I like it !)
     
  18. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    The Pathe film includes footage of the Polish AD landing so it was filmed late July/early August and I can find no mention of it in the A70 series. It must be RN film.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  19. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Photo B8470 captures the film cameraman as he shot the scene at 3m:59s on the Pathe film.



    B8470  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.jpg
     
  20. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Michael,

    Thanks. It does like look @ late July or early August is the best bet. Strangely when I went on the IWM website and searched for B8470 I got a blank photo, any idea why that would happen?

    Actually, now I think about it there is quite a bit of film footage of Polish Armoured Division landing. I'll check that out.

    According to a letter from 11 L of C area in the war diary of 4 L of C Sub Area ST Branch by 9 July 1944 "The “build-up” of the HQs CsRASC and RASC Units, placed under comd HQ, 11 L of C Area is now complete with the exception of a few unit “residues”."

    Trying to track down which L of C unit this is will, therefore, be a bit needle in haystack like. Just the sort of challenge I like.

    Regards

    Tom
     
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