Operation Market Garden (The lorry thread)

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by airborne medic, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    And another K5 being used by a first line unit, this time crossing into the Orne Bridgehead on 12 June 1944 alongside infantrymen of the 5 Cameron Highlanders according to the caption.

    The Camerons war diary relates (WO171/1270):

    12 June 1944
    All quiet. Bn spent day in preparing for the coming battle.
    1800 Bn moved to concentration area on east bank of Canal east of River Orne and lay up until 0200 hrs 13th.

    ACTIVITIES IN THE ORNE BRIDGEHEAD, JUNE 1944 (PART 3) [Allocated Title]

    IWM - A70 44-1 - Austin K5 - 5 Camerons - 51 H Div 13 Jun 44.JPG

    But the serial "52" is not right for them is it? Could the Austin K5 be from 27th Armoured Brigade's Staffordshire Yeomanry? Did they operate in the Orne Bridgehead at this time alongside 13/18 Hussars?

    Regards

    Tom
     
  2. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    I tried lightening the video grab to see if a Formation sign appeared.

    IWM - A70 44-1 - Austin K5 - 5 Camerons - 51 H Div 13 Jun 44.JPG

    Now I'm even more confused!

    I can't decide whether I think it is a "52" or a "57" and whether that is a Pegasus formation sign on the other mud guard or a 27 Armoured Brigade Seahorse directly above the serial no. Perhaps I should have a couple of beers and see if it becomes clearer.:)

    Tom
     
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    '52' would be the Divisional Bridging Platoon RE. Definitely a '52' on this going away shot - but it is a mixture of units. I can't see a formation sign here either.

    FireShot Capture 071 - ACTIVITIES IN THE ORNE BRIDG.png
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The lack of contrast in the formation sign might suggest 6 Abn Div, which would make the 52 their Fd Pk Coy and the 46 their Lt Regt RA, the X signifying a Battery Commander.
     
  5. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich, Idler,

    Thanks. I had a look at the war diary for the Fd Pk Coy on Pegasus Archive and the date does seem to fit the arrival of their Rear Party in France. They also lost several 3-tonners during their landing.

    Next time I'm in Kew I'll look out their war diary in the hope that there might be a loading list as per some other units.

    I've had a look around on-line but there doesn't seem much out there on the sea tail of 6 Airborne Division in Normandy.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  6. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Just noticed this in the wiki entry for the 216 Chevy six cylinder:

    This engine was also used in GM's British Bedford truck. In the late 1930s rival Austin decided to get into the 2-3 ton truck ("lorry") market and in a crash program based the design on the basic architecture of this "Stove Bolt" engine, except that they added detachable shell main and con-rod bearings and pressurized lubrication.

    Chevrolet straight-6 engine - Wikipedia
     
  7. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    From the 21AG REME war diary for 1944:

    K5 Wading.jpg
     
  8. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Don Juan,

    Thanks. I think the new pistons helped with the wading but caused later problems as reported in this thread.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The memo relates to wading trials and it is here that failures were signalled...The implication from reading further is that 1000 plus Austins failed the wading tests due to poor waterproofing. The report does not lay a direct link but following the failure of the wading trials, they had to be fitted with new pistons. To my mind, there can be no other conclusion than that the pistons were damaged by the ingestion of water. There is no talk of high mileage reliability trials afterwards...these poor old Screamers were knocked out by ingesting water during the trials. No suggestion of them being unsuitable for further use, and they were to be re-pistoned and issued during May - once again to assault formations. From April to May is too quick for a piston redesign. This is also significant as the K5s used by Assault Formations cannot in any way be considered to be the logistics tail of 21st Army Group in the push up towards the Rhine.

    The majority of other vehicles also failed but there is no talk of replacing pistons..was the Austin especially vulnerable ?

    It seems to me that Chester Wilmott may have been correct in so far as 21st Army Group was struggling to have enough 4x4 3-tonners ready for the assault formations but that rather than this being caused by a weakness of the vehicles, it was due to poor waterproofing.
     
  10. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Here's another letter from the 21 AG REME file, in the spirit of "for info". If you thought that the wastage of 'B' vehicles within 21 Army Group was primarily due to mechanical problems, then think again...

    REME pg1.jpg

    REME pg2.jpg
     
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  11. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    But Chester Wilmot wasn’t talking about Austin K5’s and the assault, he was talking about K5’s and Arnhem. Hence the title of this thread! :D

    His one source is the somewhat ambiguous sentence in the Administrative History of 21st Army Group which is in the autumn section of that report. We’ve got evidence of the K5’s being replaced in a couple of units but nothing yet on the scale of 1400 in early September 1944, and they were scattered throughout the assault units not all on lines of communications. In addition, during September 1944 many of the DUKW coys were swapping for replacement 3-tonnes (mostly 4x2 as they were LoC units).

    There is, of course, a possibility that the Admin History merged two K5 problems together.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  12. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    Also, somewhere in my deluge of waterproofing files there is a comment about the cold shock when wading causing the problem with pistons, so smaller rings were fitted to give more “slack”!

    Tom
     
  13. Old Git

    Old Git Harmless Curmudgeon

    Fascinating thread and some outstanding detective work on display here!

    BTW The previous links to the Administrative History of 21st AG seem to be broken. By chance has anyone downloaded them and can they be uploaded to the resources section here?
     
  14. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Here's some excerpts from the Directorate of Mechanical Engineering's (i.e. the REME directorate) fortnightly reports, from WO 165/98.

    DME Report for period ending 3rd May 1944:

    DME Report for Period Ending 3-5-44.jpg

    DME Report for period ending 3rd June 1944:

    DME Report for Period Ending 3-6-44.jpg

    DME Report for period ending 17th November 1944:

    DME Report for Period Ending 17-11-44 (1).jpg

    DME Report for Period Ending 17-11-44 (2).jpg

    DME Report for period ending 3rd December 1944:

    DME Report for Period Ending 3-12-44.jpg
     
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  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    This is still my favourite thread on here.
    Despite occasionally being my least favourite too.
    Remarkable stuff, over 16 years of chipping away.
     
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  16. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Wonderful stuff...so there were two problems ? Seizing when wading and also high oil consumption ?

    Did you find an earlier DME file or is 1941 the oldest ? Are there copies of DME circulars ? Anything motorcycle ?
     
  17. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    I've not been following this story closely, just occasionally chipping in information, but my understanding is that the first issue led to the second - i.e. the change in piston rings to cure the wading problems later prompted the excessive oil consumption. Reading the DME excerpts, it appears that there were 3000 new K5's that were "frozen" in depots until the oil consumption issues were resolved in addition to the 1400-ish K5's that were affected in the field.

    My expectation is that the excessive oil consumption was prompted by engine wear, and so this issue would have affected the various K5's in the field over a period of time and not all at once. Also, rising oil consumption is not a "show stopper" - you will just start to get heavier exhaust smoking as it starts to manifest. So I don't think that this is an issue that would have been discovered on a few vehicles, and then the rest of the fleet would have been impounded. Each K5 would have reached a point where its road performance and exhaust smoking deteriorated to the point it was no longer viable to run. Normally at this juncture either the vehicle or just its engine would have been sent for overhaul, but as the excessive oil consumption was manifesting earlier than expected (seemingly at around 5000 miles), I think that K5's were instead being quarantined in vehicle parks until Austins and the Ministry of Supply came up with a solution. Once this solution was evolved, then the quarantined K5's in the field and the 3000 new K5's in depots in the UK could be released to 21 AG.

    So I think there was always likely to have been K5's running even in late 1944, as excessive oil consumption would not have been an issue that led to the grounding of an entire fleet. Individual trucks would simply have "dropped out" as their performance deteriorated below a certain level.

    Also worth noting that if Austin made 3000 K5's in the latter half of 1944, that is quite an impressive production performance.

    The earliest report is June 1941. I suspect that is the time when the Directorate of Mechanical Maintenance was birthed within the RAOC. The DMM became the DME with the birth of the REME. There are no DME circulars - I will see what I can dig up on motorcycles.
     
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  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I've started a thread about DME Circulars...not necessarily restricted to motorcycles. There must have been tens of thousands dealing with all makes and types of vehicle. D.M.E. Circulars.
     

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