Order of crew names in RAF ORB’s?

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by RiverdaleDIY, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. RiverdaleDIY

    RiverdaleDIY Member

    Hello from Toronto, Canada:

    Great stuff you’ve got here, so thank you to all those involved in creating/helping here.

    One very quick question about RAF Operational Record Books (ORB’)s which I cannot seem too find the answer to, despite significant digging:

    Generally speaking, that is across all RAF ORB’s which I would assume at least in principal would follow a common format, albeit with numerous mistakes and omissions etc……….

    What determines the order that the crew names are listed in the ORB’s?

    It isn’t alphabetical. It isn’t by rank.

    Thus I'm guessing it is by crew position/role, but I want to confirm this.

    In my specific case, I’m looking at a Wellington bomber crew of 6 (R-1705, BH-U, crashed over France Nov. 7/8, 1941) They are consistently listed the same way every time, as:

    Sgt Sobczak
    Sgt Biliński
    F/O Kowalski
    Sgt. Budzyński
    Sgt. Konarzewski
    P/O Groyecki

    If you could give me any input as to the (typical) order of crews in ORB’s that would be most appreciated.

    Thank you.

    Matthew
     
  2. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The RAF Wellington would operate with a Pilot, a Second Pilot, Observer, two Wireless Operator /Air Gunners and a further Air Gunner.(A second pilot deemed to be expensive in terms of loss of highly trained aircrew and for the heavies replaced by a Flight Engineer who required a much shorter training period and would be eventually trained to act as "the pilot's assistant")

    The ORB record for a Wellington operating in Bomber Command would generally indicate the crew listing as follows

    Pilot
    Co Pilot
    Observer....responsible for navigation and bomb aiming
    Wireless Operator/ Air Gunner responsible for wireless operation but also qualified as an Air Gunner but having core skills on wireless. (This would eventually change to qualification in wireless only. Dual duties were as appropriate to the Hampden but it was found that dual duties imposed a greater workload on such aircrew and the change was enacted when the four engined heavies came into service.)
    Wireless Operator/Air Gunner detailed as an Air Gunner
    Air Gunner

    The completion of ORBs was the responsibility of the Squadron adjutant who was responsible for running the squadron's administrative matters.. the squadron commander's right hand man on the ground. It was a busy role covering both the recording the battle order of squadron operations and squadron administration. Consequently errors did occasionally enter the ORB 540s when faced with busy workloads. Some Adjutants also recorded more than others on squadron events who might record items briefly but the completion of the ORB was a core responsibility.

    I see that the Wellington is from the PAF No 300 Squadron based at RAF Hemswell No 1 Group, Bomber Command.

    For the PAF, the crew listing in the Battle Order for No 300 Squadron on 8 December 1941 is slightly different showing two Pilots, Observer, Wireless Operator and two Air Gunners by designation but discharging the same roles as the RAF Wellington crew.

    Note that some crews have two Wireless Operators and one Air Gunner listed but I would say that one of the Wireless Operators would be carrying out the duties of an Air Gunner

    Both examples conform to the roles listed for the RAF Wellington crew.

    Polish Squadrons Remembered a very good website dedicated to the PAF.
     
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Flying Officer P Kowalski (Polish), Sergeant K Sobczak (Polish), Sergeant S Konarzewski... | The National Archives
    Reference: AIR 81/10164
    Description:
    Flying Officer P Kowalski (Polish), Sergeant K Sobczak (Polish), Sergeant S Konarzewski (Polish), Sergeant B Bilinski (Polish): prisoners of war; Sergeant J Budzynski (Polish), Flying Officer Z Groyecki (Polish): interned; aircraft crashed near Lille, France, Wellington R1705, 300 Squadron, 8 November 1941
    Date: 1941 Jan 1 - 1946 Dec 31
    Held by: The National Archives, Kew
    Former reference in its original department: P 363616/41
    Legal status: Public Record(s)


    Example
    UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
    Name: K Sobczak
    Rank: Warrant Officer
    Army Number: P780513
    Regiment: Royal Air Force : Officers & Other Ranks
    Nationality: Pole
    POW Number: 39534
    Camp Type: Stalag
    Camp Number: 357
    Camp Location: Kopernikus, Poland
    Section: Royal Air Force : Officers & Other Ranks

    TD
     
  4. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    If you find the respective Appendix, there should be a list of all the aircrew, with their branch and role. These lists are usually produced once a month.

    This is a snippet of 38 Sqns (Wellingtons) in Greece in January 1945.

    upload_2020-12-29_10-40-8.png

    Hope this helps

    Gus
     
  5. RiverdaleDIY

    RiverdaleDIY Member

    Ahhhh….now this is all very helpful, thank you so much.

    Harry….and forgive me if I’m just missing the obvious here……

    OK so the two pilots and the Observer, did just that, no other cross-over dual role tasks. Would this then mean that those last three positions you note in a crew, would be:
    -Dedicated nose gunner
    -Dual-role radio operator and waist gunner when necessary.
    -Dedicated tail gunner

    Do you think the order of their names in the ORB conforms to these roles as I’ve listed above?
    I listed them in this order, as that would be front to back as you progress along the plane, which of course may not be correct.

    The reason I’m asking is the family has always understood Stan Konarzewski was a “Tail Gunner” and I’m trying to find some data to back this up. But that would (if I'm correct in my ordering of names/roles above) indicate that he might have been the Radio Operator/Waist Gunner.

    Tricky Dicky…Thanks for that, I have applied to The UK National Archives for Reference: AIR 81/10164 and they have managed to come up with 62 pages of documents. It cost a fair bit to get them digitized, but I’m quite excited to see what treasures they hold. Should be here in the next few weeks.

    Gmyles…..Ohh, didn’t know there was an Appendix. I got the ORB’s from the UK National Archives, so I will go back there and see if I can find said Appendix. Thank you.

    Once again, thank you all.
    p.s. Yes the Polish Squadrons Remembered has been very useful, a great site to be sure.
     
  6. RiverdaleDIY

    RiverdaleDIY Member

    Darn it! Looks like the No. 300 Squadron Appendix starts in 1943, two years too late for what I'm looking for. A real shame, as all the other Squadrons seem to start much earlier. Does anybody know if the pre-1943 era is floating around out there somewhere.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. RiverdaleDIY

    RiverdaleDIY Member

    The records I received from my UK National Archives finally answers the question......So it seems he was the Tail Gunner after all. Hopefully this will help somebody else figure out the *exact* crew role their relatives fulfilled, at least in a Wellington. Screen Shot 2021-01-09 at 3.54.21 PM.png Screen Shot 2021-01-09 at 3.55.26 PM.png
     

Share This Page