Paratroopers that refuse before or over the DZ

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by Drew5233, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Anyone got any ideas as to what happens to them ?

    Reading ATB's Op Market Garden at the mo and there seems to be a few troopers who refused to jump and in a couple of instances the sticks return to England before reaching the DZ and flies back out to Holland in a later serial. One trooper is even described as 'insane' and had to be restrained.

    Coincidence or not there is no mention of any in the 101st but all from the 82nd (Not got to the British or Polish drops yet).

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  2. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    In theory refusing to jump is a court martial offence....on the Scily drop one medic refused to jump and was taken into close arrest on his return...see page 51 of Red Berets and Red Crosses.
    However, at Arnhem I seem to recall one member of the Recce Sqn not leaving hte aircraft but because his stick ocmmander - an offcier - unhooked his static line this was not classed as a refusal....
     
  3. warhawk

    warhawk Member

    I wouldn't want to be a paratrooper, I would be afraid I would break my legs. So my hats off to the paratroopers of ww2.
     
  4. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Andy,
    See Middlebrook page 108..he says 4 refusals.....including the one mentioned in my previous post....the Recce Sqn man was his batman and was sick....lots of people have been airsick especially when Crab Airways have been practicing a tactical approach to a DZ and still exited......each to his own....

    Utrinque Paratus......
     
  5. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    If the aircraft was about to crash I wonder if they would still refuse? Brave men all the same.
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I had no option on my one and only Jump - I had a size twelve boot in my rear....that did it !

    Cheers
     
    Owen likes this.
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    If the aircraft was about to crash I wonder if they would still refuse? Brave men all the same.


    The book I'm ready gives several examples of men jumping before the DZ because of the aircraft going down due to flak damage and being collected by Dutch resistance.
     
  8. Paul Pariso

    Paul Pariso Very Senior Member

    Much the same as ABM. I was under the impression that once a Para had earned his "wings", any subsequent refusal, be it in training or on a "live" drop would result in a court martial and RTU. I've only ever done one jump (many years ago for "chariddy") and I can easily understand people who do refuse! It certainly gets the bowels moving!!
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    There were a number of incidents where SOE aircraft carrying "occupied country" agents under SOE control declined to jump at the last minute. Usually this lack of nerve was resolved and they would jump at the next opportunity.Not very good for a pilot who having got his DZ friendly recognition signal,had to go around again wasting unnecessary time over the DZ.

    Never seen a report that a SOE operative failed to jump.

    As regards sticks,what I have seen is that once you are attached to the static line,out you go, encouraged by the dispatcher.

    My parachute training was jumping off a 12 foot wall with the instruction that the legs must be close together when hitting the ground.Otherwise you will receive a leg or ankle injury.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I get the impression that their was such a fracar in the plane that they missed the DZ and stopped the jump. There is a diagram in the book page 159 that shows where one man landed and another two from a second pass- it lists the aircraft details too.

    However one plane returned to the UK complete...I can't imagine him being too popular with the rest in the plane. Especially as it collided with anoth plane on the return flight to the UK after the eventual second drop.
     
  11. :rolleyes:Have to agree with Tom C ,only ever saw one chap not happy when jumping in a stick and he was quickly coerced out the door. Spoken to on the ground though.

    I think by the time you are qualified you are so well trained that it is just second nature to follow the stick.Would have thought that on an operational jump he would have been manhandled out the door very quickly.

    For the extra 25 cents a day it's wonder everybody was not lined up to do it.

    Cheers Rob
     
  12. AndyBaldEagle

    AndyBaldEagle Very Senior Member

    As far as I can recall from all the reading I've done, and I've yet to read the ATB books even though its been on my bookshelf since I bought it when published!
    Prior to being awarded wings, men could refuse and they would be RTUd, which I think is still the same today. Howerver once awarded their wings, refusal is disobeyong order and they can/could be court martialled.
    I am sure that the peer pressure meant most men overcame any fear so they didnt refuse.
    On my databases I have several chaps who were RTUd because they refused to jump, when at the Air Landing Schools both in Uk and India, and for other things too!

    Andy
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Andy,

    Are you refering to British Paratroopers?

    Everyone seems to be giving opinions (greatly appreciated) on British paratroopers and I'm not aware of any British or Polish refusing to jump. My Q is based on the 82nd and if I remember correctly by this time in WW2 the Americans were drafted straight into Airborne units rather than volunteering in the 'early airborne days' which makes me wonder who you could be RTU'd?

    Cheers for your comments
    Andy
     
  14. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Does anyone have more information on the Recce Sqdn man?


    Cheers
    Paul
     
  15. B)Drew
    "Everyone seems to be giving opinions (greatly appreciated) on British paratroopers "

    Don't know how to do the quote thing.

    No I was speaking as a qualified Australian Para and if a bloke had any doubts about what you were doing you wouldn't be on the course in the first place.


    There is a lot of personal pride in wearing the Red or Green beret and it takes a lot of training to achieve either.
    The actual para course is only a small part of the overall training to earn the right to wear the coverted beret.

    There may be isolated recorded instances of men not wanting to jump but I still reckon on an operational jump they would still be out the door very quickly.
    (That bit is an opinion on knowing how the system in the aircraft works.)

    More than happy to be corrected by someone who has had actual experience with a non jumper.

    Cheers Rob
     
  16. Jakob Kjaersgaard

    Jakob Kjaersgaard Senior Member

    In All American All The Way about the 82nd by Phil Nordyke it is described on page 24:

    "Any refusal to jump after the fifth qualifying jump was a court-martial offense."

    This was described after the entire 505th PIR made their first jump af Fort Jackson. An accident however occured involving a C-47 flying through a group of troopers slashing them to bits.

    Link to the book: All American, All the Way: The ... - Google Bogsøgning

    Jakob
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    B)Drew
    "Everyone seems to be giving opinions (greatly appreciated) on British paratroopers "

    Don't know how to do the quote thing.

    No I was speaking as a qualified Australian Para and if a bloke had any doubts about what you were doing you wouldn't be on the course in the first place.


    There is a lot of personal pride in wearing the Red or Green beret and it takes a lot of training to achieve either.
    The actual para course is only a small part of the overall training to earn the right to wear the coverted beret.

    There may be isolated recorded instances of men not wanting to jump but I still reckon on an operational jump they would still be out the door very quickly.
    (That bit is an opinion on knowing how the system in the aircraft works.)

    More than happy to be corrected by someone who has had actual experience with a non jumper.

    Cheers Rob

    Click the Quote button :)

    Cheers Troopie, I'm quite familiar with 'P Company' training ;)

    I was reading last night that a few 1st Airborne chaps refused over the Arnhem DZ's too. I think its fair to say that they were all CM. I'll post details later of the 1st Airborne when I get the book out later :)

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    From ATB's Op Market Garden:

    Between 1353 and 1408, all but seven of the 2,283 paratroops in the aircraft made their jump at altitudes of 700ft to 900ft.


    It goes onto say:

    In all, only four of the 2,283 paras refused to jump (Two in A-25, one each in A-26 and A-27), with three being brought back for other reasons. In the C-47 flown by Captain George D. Merz of 61 Squadron, one man got tangled in his static line and one was unable to jump, and in 2nd Lieutenant Morgan Boatright's C-47, also of the 61st, another para got his rifle caught in his static line which caused him to be left hanging in the doorway. Some seven miles from the DZ, the crew chief managed to shake him loose and his 'chute opened alright. The two paras who's exit had been blocked by this incident asked for a second run over the DZ, but Boatright refused due to the flak and returned the men to England.


    Anyway I'll take it the refusals were CM.

    Cheers all
    Andy
     
  19. AndyBaldEagle

    AndyBaldEagle Very Senior Member

    Andy,

    Are you refering to British Paratroopers?

    Everyone seems to be giving opinions (greatly appreciated) on British paratroopers and I'm not aware of any British or Polish refusing to jump. My Q is based on the 82nd and if I remember correctly by this time in WW2 the Americans were drafted straight into Airborne units rather than volunteering in the 'early airborne days' which makes me wonder who you could be RTU'd?

    Cheers for your comments
    Andy

    Andy
    That will teach me to read the thread properly and carefully:D:D
    I thought that the Americans were all volunteers too but stand to be corrected! I did indeed mean British paratroopers I havent read that much about the Americans , yet!
    Now I will definitely have to get it off the shelf and read it, along with the other 20 or so books waiting!
    If only there were more hours in the day I might get round to reading them all - I will have to set a weekend aside methinks!:)

    regards
    Andy
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Andy,

    You won't regret reading it....My first on OMG and by george its good :D
     

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