Pearl Harbor

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by Wise1, Aug 30, 2004.

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  1. Wise1

    Wise1 There We Are Then

    Its annoying me enough to post this at 1am :)

    To set the scene:

    On the day the Japanese fleet set out for amongst other locations Pearl Harbour in the Hawaian Islands the Americans had yet again asked the Japanese to completely withdraw from China.

    So with this in mind and given that the Japanese were clearly not budging you would expect that the Americans would be on full alert on suspicion of any reaction other than compliance to withdraw.

    As I understand it a sizeable fleet out of pearl harbour were on training that week but returned to pearl harbour at the weekend.

    The Japanese fleet left for pearl harbour on scrict radio silence to prevent detection, clearly the Americans knew the fleet was on the move but did not make any attempt to identify there whereabouts, or did they?

    Once in position Japanese aircraft left their carriers for pearl harbour and despite being picked up on radar the operators did not believe they would have been anything other than friendly aircraft, surely you would know if a wave of aircraft on your radar was friendly or not?

    On getting to Pearl harbour they destroyed the 4 main runways crippling the American air force and destroying some 350 aircraft and then turned on the US fleet creating complete devestation of the Ships in the harbour.

    Overall 2000+ men lost their lives. So what am I missing? was it just a complete disaster that caught them so unaware that it was too late? Certainly in the second wave of attacks from Japanese aircraft they appeared better prepared but to a certain extent in vain. They Japanese lost just 29 aircraft and 6 small subs, a small price to pay for such a big victory.
     
  2. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Pearl Harbor was the favorite American historical hobby horse until John F. Kennedy was shot.

    However, despite the claims of revisionists with penknives and axes to grind, it's pretty clear that the US missed a lot of warning signs, most of which were not specific about attacks on Hawaii. The general presumption that war was near in Malaya and the Philippines.

    A deadly combination of smug arrogance, lack of imagination, poor planning, erroneous assumptions, and lethargy helped the Japanese. The fact that they prepared and rehearsed a meticulously-planned operation, executed it well, and enjoyed the advantages of technology and training, also helped. They were aided by a certain amount of luck -- the sloppy American handling of the last-minute warning messages, for example.

    The Japanese never expected the attack to be a surprise. In the end, despite their stunning tactical victory, the joke was on them. Instead of crippling the Americans on the outbreak of war and crushing their will to fight back, they infuriated them beyond measure. And they failed to catch the American aircraft carriers in harbor, and also failed to destroy the base's drydocks and oil supplies.
     
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  3. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Kiwiwriter,Aug 30 2004, 01:34 PM
    Pearl Harbor was the favorite American historical hobby horse until John F. Kennedy was shot.


    Classic! You made my day with that one.
    I couldn't agree with you more I do recommend John Toland's Infamy for a pretty even-handed account.
    Take care,
    Neil
     
  4. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Pearl Harbor was the favorite American historical hobby horse until John F. Kennedy was shot.

    Classic! You made my day with that one.
    I couldn't agree with you more I do recommend John Toland's Infamy for a pretty even-handed account.
    Take care,
    Neil
    [post=27839]Quoted post[/post]

    Toland's "Infamy" is not even-handed. He makes numerous historical errors and is basically advancing the cause that FDR "set up" the Pacific Fleet to be destroyed.

    The best sources on Pearl Harbor are Gordon W. Prange's "At Dawn We Slept," "December 7, 1941," and "Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History." Also Thurston Clarke's "Pearl Harbor Ghosts," and Stanley Weintraub's "Long Day's Journey Into War."
     
  5. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    Hi Kiwi,
    I disagree (I'm not arguing the errors as I'm no expert) this book was given to me as a 'smoking-gun' of FDR's foreknowledge and to be honest I didn't see it that way. It was 15 years ago so perhaps my memory fails me.
    Take care,
    Neil
     
  6. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    No, Toland's book is not the "smoking gun," I'm afraid. His "mysterious sources" are pretty well explained in Prange's book.

    Henry Clausen's "Pearl Harbor: Final Judgment" also slices up Toland pretty well.

    It was Toland's last book, and not his best.
     
  7. Wise1

    Wise1 There We Are Then

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Aug 30 2004, 02:34 PM
    they infuriated them beyond measure.
    [post=27830]Quoted post[/post]

    I thought that would probably be the effect.
     
  8. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    There is the David Kahns mighty tomb "The Codebreakers" as he points out, there was no specific japanese message which had been decrypted that specifically mentioned an attack on Pearl Harbour.

    However, there were messages intercepted to spies in the pearl harbour area asking for shipping intelligence.
     
  9. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    I stand ready to be corrected here but was it not the American General Billy Mitchell, who in the 1920s warned of the Japanese threat and predicted Pearl Harbour as a scenario.
    I know threre is a great deal on the web about this but I find that to much of the supposed information on the web is not backed up by hard evidence or sources.
    I am very suspicious of much of the military information on the web for this reason.
    Also I remember reading an article in the papers here a few years ago that claimed declassified British documents showed that British Intelligance had cracked the Japanese navel codes and knew that Pearl Harbour was a target and warned America.
    Now shoot me down in flames.
     
  10. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    I stand ready to be corrected here but was it not the American General Billy Mitchell, who in the 1920s warned of the Japanese threat and predicted Pearl Harbour as a scenario.

    You are correct, sappernz, in what you say; Billy Mitchell wrote a paper in which he described a aerial attack on Pearl harbour, which with the benefit of hindsight, turned out to be totally correct.

    Similarly, Gen Percival who was in charge of the forces in Singapore took park in a exercise at the Staff college in 1926, in which the Japanese attacked Singapore. The conclusion was that the main threat came from the mainland and not the sea, also that Singapore was undependable!



    Also I remember reading an article in the papers here a few years ago that claimed declassified British documents showed that British Intelligance had cracked the Japanese navel codes and knew that Pearl Harbour was a target and warned America.
    Now shoot me down in flames.

    "
    Where GC&CS really wanted to cooperate with the Americans was in the area they desperately needed help, and that was Japan. GC&CS had ear¬lier tried and given up on solving the Purple machine. The British had begun to intercept some Japanese naval traffic at a listening post in Hong Kong in the 1930s, and continuing the work after moving to Singapore in September 1939 the Far East bureau had made some progress on JN-25, the main Japanese naval code. But the British had very few Japanese linguists, and in¬deed suggested they would hand over all of their cryptanalytic work in the Far East to the United States if the Americans did no more than supply the needed translators. The British gratitude for American help on Japanese codes and the gift of the Purple machine was genuine, and for the moment at least that helped to smooth over the British reticence on the Enigma front.”

    Budiansky, Stephen., Battle of Wits – The Complete story of Codebreaking in WW2, Penquin, London, 2001 P178
     
  11. Aerofalcon14

    Aerofalcon14 Junior Member

    Out of the 6 mini subs the japanese sent to Pearl all were reported sunk or missing. But their is still some controversy wether one sub actually got into the harbor and fired upon a U.S. ship, before being sunk somewhere outside the harbor.
     
  12. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Out of the 6 mini subs the japanese sent to Pearl all were reported sunk or missing. But their is still some controversy wether one sub actually got into the harbor and fired upon a U.S. ship, before being sunk somewhere outside the harbor.

    There was a Discovery channel programme not long back which analysed air footage of the attack and investigators reckoned that the trail of one of the mini subs matched a trail which was in the harbour.

    They stood on a hill and compared the size of the trails with that shown on the photos and I believe they used a mock mini sub in the harbour, matched the photos up from the location the pictures were taken. They concluded that it was almost certain that they were one and the same, but couldn't confirm it with certainty.

    There was also air footage where there is a trail in the middle a few hundred or so yards from one of the ships and the shape of the wake and the size correlated with a mini sub.

    I think it's the programme the one where the retired US rear admiral gets into loggerheads with a group of academics when they are arguing/discussing the other outcomes if the ships had been out at sea instead of in harbour. Could be wrong on that point though.
     
  13. superpumper

    superpumper Junior Member

    The mini sub discussion will be carried on for a long time. Some people say that certain wakes show yes it was a sub and others can refute that with other logical arguments.
     
  14. superpumper

    superpumper Junior Member

    Wasn't there some war games carried out during the '30's were a task force struck Pearl in a suprise attack? I think I'm right. Does anyone Know for sure?
     
  15. raf

    raf Senior Member

    correct me if i'm wrong...

    i was told by a bloke at work who's interested in ships that some senior U.S people new that there would be an attack from japan and the americans had moved most of their better ships out of the area.

    how true is this
     
  16. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    correct me if i'm wrong...

    i was told by a bloke at work who's interested in ships that some senior U.S people new that there would be an attack from japan and the americans had moved most of their better ships out of the area.

    how true is this

    He is wrong...the three American Pacific Fleet carriers were out of Pearl Harbor that day. Lexington was delivering planes to Wake Island, Saratoga was a dockyard case at San Diego, and Enterprise was en route back to Pearl Harbor after delivering planes to Midway.

    Now this might seem like the Americans cleverly left their carriers away from the target, but...

    1. The American battle plans of December 7, 1941, saw the battleships as the main offensive weapon, with the carriers in support, not the other way around. Eight of the nine Pacific Fleet battlewagons were at Pearl Harbor that morning. The ninth, Colorado, regarded as a "jinx ship," was in Bremerton Navy Yard. The three battleships that normally escorted the carriers were left home by Vice Adm. William Halsey so as not to slow down his fast carriers and cruisers.

    2. Enterprise was scheduled to arrive at Pearl Harbor the morning of "Bloody Sunday," but was held by back by winds and weather that made it tough to refuel the destroyers. She shot off several planes to land at Ford Island ahead of the carrier, and those poor sods flew into the harbor after the attack, and most were shot down, with fatal casualties, by trigger-happy American gunners. Had Enterprise not encountered that delay, she would have been parked in her usual berth on the North side of Ford Island, and been the recipient of the torpedoes that sank the ex-battleship Utah and nearly sank the cruiser Raleigh. Without Enterprise, WW2 in the Pacific would have had a very different outcome.

    So on the unluckiest day in American military history, the Americans had one piece of good luck...the carriers were out. They had a second in that the Japanese did not wreck Pearl Harbor's drydocks and fuel supplies, which would have forced the fleet to retreat to San Diego.
     
  17. Gibbo

    Gibbo Senior Member

    Wasn't there some war games carried out during the '30's were a task force struck Pearl in a suprise attack? I think I'm right. Does anyone Know for sure?

    There was certainly an exercise in the early 30s in which aircraft launched a surprise attack on Peark. What I don't know is how successful it was deemed to be by the umpires of the exercise.
     
  18. Robby1989

    Robby1989 Junior Member

    Does anyone know exactly how many Japanese planes participated in the attack? Also, did any US planes get off the ground during the fight? I've heard several inconsistances in regards to that.

    +Robby+
     
  19. adamcotton

    adamcotton Senior Member

    Does anyone know exactly how many Japanese planes participated in the attack? Also, did any US planes get off the ground during the fight? I've heard several inconsistances in regards to that.

    +Robby+

    A number of U.S. fighters got airborne during the attack, but it was only the P-40s flown by Lts welch and Taylor that actually brought any of the attacking Japanese aircraft down.
     
  20. ourbill

    ourbill Senior Member

    I've nearly finished a very interesting book which was written with the help of documents recently made available for general perusal. The subject of 'Pearl Harbour' is put in perspective with regards to the relationship of USA and Britain. The trouble with secret documents is that they don't remain secret for long and if they do they are either shreaded or buried in some strange archive, however, the writers of the book are past masters at digging. Whether you believe it or not is up to the reader but in many cases the evidence is so convincing that there must be a grain of truth in their arguments. Some of the unanswered questions of WW2 are drawn in to a pattern of world wide proportions.
    'Pearl Harbour' was the final act in a drama whose main characters are FDR, Harry L Hopkins, and W Churchill.
    The book is: Friendly Fire. The Secret War between the Allies
    By Lynn Picknett, Clive Prince and Stephen Prior.
    First Published 2005.

    Finally a quote from Gore Vidal which seems to sum up general path of the book from the USA perspective, he declares:

    shows us that the famous 'surprise' attack was no surprise to our war-minded rulers, and that three thousand American military men killed and wounded one Sunday morning in Hawaii were, to our rulers and present avatars, a small price to pay for that 'global empire' over which we now preside so ineptly.

    Anyway Gore Vidal would say that.
     

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