Photo I.D. LCT 610 (212) and Sherman Firefly on D-Day beach

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by EKB, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Shermans No. 70, 77 and ARV Cymru-Am-Byth on LCT 610 (212).jpeg

    The background picture was probably made by the official photographer on LCT 610, but I could not find the catalogue number at the IWM archive. The two crew members on the ARV look like the men in the inset photo.


    Sherman Firefly unknown unit, beach and catalogue ID.jpg

    Have not seen this image before. Not sure about the unit, beach, or IWM archive number.
     
  2. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Last photo is from The Sale Collection

    7202016.jpg Wednb7082016.jpg Wednb7072016.jpg Wednb7052016.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  3. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Firefly in the last photo is from 3CLY, 4 Armoured Brigade. This is deduced from the number on the AOS marking. Landed on 7 June.

    Mike.
     
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  4. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    More:

    Wednb7042016.jpg Wednb6982016.jpg Wednb6972016.jpg Wednb6792016.jpg
     
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  5. IWM H39001 by Jimmy Mapham:
    PREPARING FOR THE INVASION

    And yes, it's the same 13/18 H 'C' Sqn ARV named 'CYMRU-AM-BYTH'.
     
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  6. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The Crusader gun tractors aren't often seen (second photo posted by Michael)
     
  7. Staffsyeoman

    Staffsyeoman Member

    Does this help?

    bject description
    A Sherman Firefly and other vehicles of RHQ or 'C' Squadron, 13th/18th Royal Hussars aboard LCT 610 (loading number 212) as landing craft assemble in the Solent off Gosport, 4/5 June 1944. LCT 789 (loading number 213) can be seen in the background, carrying infantry from the 1st South Lancashire Regiment.

    Object details
    Category Photographs
    Related period Second World War (production), Second World War (content)
    Creator No. 5 Army Film and Photo Section, Army Film and Photographic Unit
    Production date 1944-06-05
    Materials whole: Nitrate
    Catalogue number B 5105
     
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  8. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Hello Staffsyeoman,

    WW2Talk image 01 - IWM B5105.jpg

    I intended to post B5105 at some point, for I recently obtained a copy of this picture scanned at high-resolution. As you can see, it shows more detail than the blurred contact print at the IWM Web site. I was able to zoom-in and verify the tank I.D. and two crew members.


    WW2Talk image 02 - IWM B5105.jpg

    Trooper Fred Shaw (left) and Sergeant Fred Scamp (right) assigned to No. 2 Troop of 'C' Squadron. The Sherman carried turret No. 71. As far as I know, their troop mates from Shermans No. 68, 69 and 70 are under the camouflage nets or standing at the deck rails. Also hidden from view are Shermans No. 10, 11 and 77.


    WW2Talk image 03 - IWM B5105.jpg

    Close-up of load markings as 1126/LCT4/212.


    WW2Talk image 04 - IWM B5108.jpg

    Another view of Sherman No. 71 (circled). I did not find a high-resolution copy of this picture. The soldier in the foreground sat on a Sherman tank, possibly No. 11, seen earlier dragging an empty ammunition sledge aboard. In another thread someone suggested that the crew could not re-start the engine of Sherman No. 11, which was returned to England. Before the nets were drawn I noticed one ARV parked behind Sherman No. 77 and another ARV parked in front of Sherman No. 10. I cannot tell if that was the same vehicle. One or more amphibious jeeps were parked between the AFVs, plus an undetermined number of motorcycles and sledges.


    WW2Talk image 05 - IWM H38995 - H38967 .jpg

    Crew of Sherman No. 71. Group photo: L to R, Trooper Shaw, Trooper Kay, Sergeant Scamp, Trooper Humphries. Top left: gunner Douglas Kay; interviewed several times about his service with No. 2 Troop and provided what little information is known about the crew members. Bottom left: tank commander Fred Scamp, standing in the center, was killed in action a few months before the war ended in Europe. Douglas Kay told reporters that he was on leave when CAROLE 71 was knocked out in Germany, being re-assigned to a different crew on return. No other information emerged about Shaw and Humphries.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2021
  9. No.68 & 69 did not make the crossing on board LCT 610 as planned but on board LCT 898. Otherwise the actual load was as per the Landing Table, with 4 "tk Sherman III" i/o 6.
     
  10. Yes, it's No.11. However, you are stating that the sledge dragged by No.11 was empty, as if it were a hard fact. Please kindly produce your source, because this does not make sense. Why drag an empty sledge? To fill it later on board the (somewhat crowded) LCT, when the sledge is under the preceding tank??

    Michel
     
  11. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    © IWM ADM 981 Porpoise (sledge) loaded aboard LCT, hitched and towed off by DD Valentine.jpeg

    How would they reposition a porpoise (sledge) on the deck if it was filled up first?
     
  12. The (nice) images you show (from ADM 981) show trials (with Valentine DD tks), and do not necessarily reflect what happened on D Day. If towed properly, the Porpoises did not have to be repositioned, and if the need did arise, I imagine that sufficient manpower was available to move even a loaded sledge.

    The discussion is apparently still open as to whether the Oct 44 instructions calling for loading the Porpoises once on board the LCT) were issued as a result of the D Day experiences or were already in force, although not yet formalised, for D Day. See http://smallcoginabigwheel.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/porpoise-ammunition-sledges.html

    I will check what I have and see whether there's any hint about when the Porpoises were loaded for D Day.

    Michel
     
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  14. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    I have been following this thread with great interest but my brain does not work at the speed of the young people here.

    Looking at my own work I see that although where vehicles tow porpoises they are mentioned in the tables there is no mention of any DD tank towing one. There are AVREs, Centaurs, Priests, Shermans from the non DD squadrons and Fireflies but no DD Shermans.

    It did not occur to me that DD tanks might be expected to tow Porpoises from LCTs some distance off shore in rough seas. It does seem that the Porpoises were not intended to carry ammunition for their own vehicles use but to leave them where they could be collected and their load used as a general reserve.

    Mike
     
  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Talks about the Valentine / Sherman DD differences...

    Porpoise Ammunition Sledges
     
  16. A couple of references found so far in War Diaries:

    79 Aslt Sqn RE
    3 Jun 44
    Ten Porpoises are towed on skids – one catches fire and fire is put out by NFS – reason for fire either careless packing and igniter set off or runners getting too hot ? Another porpoise is found between G.1 and G.2 Hards and refilled as similarly as possible to the others.

    27 CAR (Sherbrooke Fusiliers)
    27 May 44
    Porpoises were loaded on lorries today and taken to the hards where they will be stowed with amn and waterproofed.
    3 Jun 44
    Loading commenced at 0630 hrs, porpoises were chained under the tanks and taken aboard without incident.

    These I believe show that Porpoises, at least for those two units, were pre-loaded. Additionally, I can't recall any account of Porpoises being loaded after embarkation (which of course does not mean it did not happen). However, the fact that they had to be waterproofed favours their being stowed before embarkation.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  17. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member


    After a lengthy search just one picture has surfaced of a Sherman DD tank towing a Mk II sledge. This is a published photo cropped as shown and credited to the Tank Museum. This is posted below, along with other images showing various types of sledges used by the British Army. There is little information online about the operational use of this equipment.

    Of particular interest are the personnel sledges, especially the massive troop carrier sledge seen during the Rhine crossing of March 1945. IWM photo BU2127 is the only official document that I’ve seen about the existence of this type. If anyone has a better quality copy of the photo please share it.

    Sledge Photos A Towed by Sherman DD tank.jpeg
    Sledge Photos B © IWM B5262 sledge and towbars GOLD Beach  : H 39000 Gosport.jpg
    Sledge Photos C © IWM H29055:H29054.jpeg
    Sledge Photos D © IWM BU 1748.jpg
    Sledge Photos E © IWM BU1740:BU1748.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
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  18. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    POST IA.jpeg
    Seen at Gosport, waiting to cross the English Channel, Sherman No. 10 ‘BALACLAVA’ was the first AFV to board LCT 610. Shipping marks for LCT load 212 are scribbled across the front. This tank looks almost factory fresh and carefully waterproofed, which evidently included removal of headlights. A .30 caliber machine gun topside was substituted for the more common .50. The brigade, regiment, and bridge class symbols look hand-painted rather than sprayed on with a stencil. There was a long traffic jam of vehicles behind this one, as seen in the next photo.

    POST 1B.jpeg
    This is a stunning sight for a large residential area. I did not find much reference to how security was handled in a situation like this, particularly as the mass of vehicles moved closer to the anchorage. I don’t see crowds of people mixing with the troops so I guess that civilians on the military traffic routes were evacuated, cordoned off, or told to stay indoors. The IWM photos showing the crew of ‘CHALLENGER’ flirting with a young lady delivering milk, feeding a cat, and making friends with a child, suggests that security was lax at times. But those scenes might have been stage-managed by the government. I wanted to post a modern photo of the street but I don’t know the location.

    POST 1C.jpeg
    IWM photos B5105 and B5110, showing opposite corners of the tank well on LCT 610, indicate that the load master employed offset parking for the two rows of Shermans. Don’t know if this was normal practice. As the LCT Mk 4 was rated to carry up to nine medium tanks, I’m not sure why Shermans No. 68 and No. 69 were moved to another ship. The air photo is IWM / FL7101.

    POST 1D.jpg
    At various times, several people posted the IWM photo of the Ford Sea Jeep but I could not find picture H38993 in the online catalogue. All of the Shermans on LCT 610 had open top wading vents, but without the diagonal back brace. Some units used a completely different deep water fording kit with wider vents and a curved weather cap.

    POST 1E.jpg
    I don’t know the origin of the inset picture — possibly the U.S. Army Signal Corps— but a sharp-eyed enthusiast in another forum noticed that the motorcycle and rider are the same as in the background photo. The two men peering out of the pulpit on the Sherman ARV, probably Trooper Blackmore and Corporal Attew, were previously pictured in IWM/H38971 (see post #1). According to the ‘C’ Squadron War Diary, the ARV was knocked out in August 1944 when Corporal Attew was killed and Craftsman Leworthy was wounded.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2022
  19. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    01 © IWM H38998: H38991 Shermans No. 10 and 11 on LCT 610 (212) copy.jpg
    Shermans No. 10 and 11 appear to be M4A2 (Sherman III) with a one-piece nose casting. The Sherman Minutia Web site is a good source for technical data and recognition features.

    The two RHQ command tanks did not have tow bars lashed to the front plate. Presumably they did not pull a sledge onto the beach, but it’s possible that a spare set of draw bars were carried on the engine deck.(IWM H38991/H38992/H38998).

    I was surprised to learn that British armoured regiments were substantially diesel-powered, accepting more than 5,000 Sherman tanks with the GM 6046 twin diesel. All British-flagged M10s had the same engine.


    02 © IWM H 39000 Shermans No. 70 and 77 loading on LCT 610 (crop 3) copy.jpg
    The sledge taken aboard LCT 610 by Sherman No. 70 was probably towed off by Sherman No. 71 (IWM H39000).


    03 © IWM H 39000 Shermans No. 70 and 77 loading on LCT 610 (crop 2) copy.jpg
    The sledge pulled by Sherman No. 77 is barely visible next to the officer standing in the foreground. Both tanks have a set of tow bars displayed in the usual position. Shermans No. 11, 70 and 77 had the all-metal T49 ‘interrupted parallel bar’ tracks; conceived due to a rubber shortfall during the war with Japan. The absence of track pads no doubt caused a rough and noisy ride on paved roads.


    04 © IWM H 39000 Shermans No. 70 and 77 loading on LCT 610 (crop 4) copy.jpg
    No photo was found of the Sherman ARV reversing onto the LCT, but there is a sledge on the deck in front of the ARV, surrounded by British soldiers.

    The sledge pulled aboard the LCT by Sherman No. 11 is not visible in this picture; possibly blocked from view by the man standing near the bow, or moved in front of the ARV. The soldier standing next to Sherman No. 11 was pounding a large chock under the track.

    There is a piece of equipment in front of the wheel house on the LCT, maybe a jeep or other small vehicle.


    05 © IWM H 39000 : A70 19-2 Shermans No. 70, 77 bricklayers.jpg
    I could not identify individuals in the foreground, possibly from HQ 27th Armoured Brigade or 13th/18th Royal Hussars. The man facing the camera might have been a supervisor of load plans; he was also seen walking up the slipway in front of LCT 853 (IWM/A70 23-3). The inset movie frames show civilian contractors replacing concrete slabs on a load runway (IWM A70 19-2). This type of maintenance was also done by Royal Marines (IWM A24150/A24151).
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2022
  20. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Pictures of two Shermans enroute to the landing craft at Gosport. Firefly No. 75 was commanded by Sergeant Stanley George Diver (406294). There was another photo of Stan Diver made at Breville; will post that later. The turret number of the other tank is not visible, although the name CHALLENGER is outlined in chalk but not filled in with paint. It seems unlikely that the civilians seen in these pictures were random people who evaded the redcaps and simply walked through the security screen.

    Sherman CHALLENGER H38988.png
    Sherman CHALLENGER H38988 crop.png
    Sherman CHALLENGER A70 23-2.jpeg
    Sherman CHALLENGER H38999:H38990:A70 23-2.jpg
    Sherman No. 75 A70 23-2 H38967:H38969:B5025.jpg
     
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