Plans for the Invasion of Japan WW2

Truman may well have been publicly lynched on Pennsylvania Ave. had he even delayed the deployment of the A-bomb and caused avoidable casualties. By that stage of the war it is unthinkable that anyone would doubt the absolute political necessity of using the bomb first. This debate has always been farcical in my view.

Could not agree more!

The majority of the voices against the bomb were from those in the Forces who would have firebombed Japan and slaughtered the population, or the next generation who found the moral high ground without having to live through those terrible years.

 

Procrastination is the thief of time (and would have been lives). Over quickly? Or:


U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Report 90 Incendiary Attacks on Japan




Internet Archive Search: bombing survey

 

Quick note on the USSB: Take what it reports with a grain of salt. LeMay wanted evidence that the Air Force should be an independent body from the Army, and he got it. The data is generally very accurate, but the conclusions drawn from that information tend to be skewed in favor of the efficacy of aerial attack.

 

Indeed - Fighting his corner - as did all the others! However, I do prefer reports and despatches - even though they a prone to putting a shine on things - we all know of the 'screw ups' yet few reports of them exist in plain language. History books are too often the work of a collator, gather the information they agree with and print. Many recommendations are given - again I suspect many of these fall into the - I read that before and agree with it category. New or information that shows a different 'truth' becomes the work of 'bad authors'. Often we read of 'revisionist history' when in fact it has been revisited with newly released information. Some will accept others will not accept history that has been shown in a new light.

 

Indeed - Fighting his corner - as did all the others!

Yeah, he really wanted the USAAF to be the USAF. Wasn't above cheating a bit.

 

Thanks for the tip on the book about the invasion of Japan! I'm in the middle of writing a book about the Pacific war from the U.S. Marines point of view, so the book will be the source of some good info, I expect.

Dick Avery

 

arnhem44, I strongly disagree, based on the information from books by John Ray Skates, Ben Frank, and the good Mr. Giangreco, among others. The Japanese strength on Kyushu was slightly underestimated, for one thing. Instead of ~450.000 troops, they had over 700,000.

Skates cites figures of approximately 2.000 midget submarines, 3.000 Okha bombs, 5.000 airplanes and 10.000 suicide boats, IIRC. And they had the fuel to operate them, that "last ditch defense" reserve would have been sufficient to make life interesting on the seas off the coast.


No doubt also the japanese staff are good in producing spiritlifting numbers.
Exaggerating to please the top brass.
It happened with the HQ under Hitler, so too with the HQ under Stalin. So why would the Japs do anything different ? (and so too under Iraq's Saddam "Mother of all batlles", Libya's Khadaffi, etc, etc).

They put it on papers... no-one else in the HQ staff could verify , or would be willing to check.
Shreds of those papers survive, or only hearsay after the end of the war, et voila a myth of millions of soldiers and 10.000's tanks and airplanes were ready.

Simple test: if they were all ready , why weren't they active on Okinawa ? On Philippines..only weeks, and months before ?
A good independent after war proof would be scrapyard figures. Is it shown in those books ?



Another parallel are the indonesian youth of Sukarno in 1945.
There are similar propaganda films of 15 year old boys and girls training with sharpened bamboo spears with which the returning (dutch) kolonials would be slaughtered. Eaxctly the same style of footage as the japanese films. The indonesian fighters were trained and inspired by the japanese during the occupation.
Mind you, both films made it clear that these kids would NOT have rifles.
(at least that is a truth).

So, the brits arrived first in Surabaya (denying the dutch marines to return on java for six months..((think what that decision has cost many more innocent lives (duh)) ;
So was there this massive population attack on these westerners ?
helas, no:
no massive attacks from the population.(but one bloody ambush okt 1945 coln. Mallaby)..then the chaotic bersiap killings .. but nothing like what was feared/promised by the propaganda films...then came the dutch in full..more ambushes and skirmishes..but no large scale mayhem.
In fact large sections of the indonesians did not mind the return of the dutch (for own interests of course, or because Sukarno's men were seen as a band of bandits instead of pure revolutianaries..or they simply didnot care).

In that respect you can compare the indonesians with the japanese:
sense of tradition, fanaticism if need be, response to the call for the higher spirit, etc...
And yet it all wasn't that bad as feared.



And last but not least proof :

The Nazi redoubt in the Alps in 1945..also a lot of fear with the Allies early 1945, a lot of noise....but NOTHING ever substantial was put in practice.
(and how many hardcore nazi's did actually make it to Argentina/Brazil/Chili ?..well, there is your "millions" of nazi-resistance...).



It doesn't harm to once in a while think for yourself and don't believe something "because it is printed".
Nowadays, "because it is on the internet".

 

Thanks for the tip on the book about the invasion of Japan! I'm in the middle of writing a book about the Pacific war from the U.S. Marines point of view, so the book will be the source of some good info, I expect.

Dick Avery

You might find this useful: HyperWar: U.S. Marine Corps in World War II

 

No doubt also the japanese staff are good in producing spiritlifting numbers.
Exaggerating to please the top brass.
It happened with the HQ under Hitler, so too with the HQ under Stalin. So why would the Japs do anything different ? (and so too under Iraq's Saddam "Mother of all batlles", Libya's Khadaffi, etc, etc).

They put it on papers... no-one else in the HQ staff could verify , or would be willing to check.
Shreds of those papers survive, or only hearsay after the end of the war, et voila a myth of millions of soldiers and 10.000's tanks and airplanes were ready.

Simple test: if they were all ready , why weren't they active on Okinawa ? On Philippines..only weeks, and months before ?
A good independent after war proof would be scrapyard figures. Is it shown in those books ?
Shipping, or rather the profound lack of it. By 1945, most of the transport ships in the Japanese merchant fleet had large holes in their sides and were exhibiting the effects of negative bouancy. Regardless, you are making the 20/20 hindsight assumption that the Japanese knew that the US forces were going to invade Okinawa prior to landing on proper Japanese soil.


Another parallel are the indonesian youth of Sukarno in 1945.
There are similar propaganda films of 15 year old boys and girls training with sharpened bamboo spears with which the returning (dutch) kolonials would be slaughtered. Eaxctly the same style of footage as the japanese films. The indonesian fighters were trained and inspired by the japanese during the

blah
blah
blah

And yet it all wasn't that bad as feared.



And last but not least proof :

The Nazi redoubt in the Alps in 1945..also a lot of fear with the Allies early 1945, a lot of noise....but NOTHING ever substantial was put in practice.
(and how many hardcore nazi's did actually make it to Argentina/Brazil/Chili ?..well, there is your "millions" of nazi-resistance...).



It doesn't harm to once in a while think for yourself and don't believe something "because it is printed".
Nowadays, "because it is on the internet".

So, if my neighbor beats his wife, then I also beat mine because I have some vague similarity to him?

If you have proof of your allegation, present it. Of course, by your own standard, you can't use the internet.

 

Dr. Robert Lyman is interviewed by Saul David in an Apple podcast (26m; available for free) and the summary states:

From & Link: 297. Operation Downfall: The Invasion That Never Was It started to play, hit pause and then nowt. You may to sign up for access.

Dr. Lyman recommends a book on Downfall: John Skates “The Invasion of Japan” is excellent.

Online research found it was originally published in 1994, then twice since then (in various formats) and remains available.

There are several other threads here on the topic:

1) Started 2004: Downfall x21 replies

2) Started 2004: Operarion Downfall x8 replies

3) Started 2008: Operation Downfall - 1st November 1945 x3 replies