Just went over the numbers where they say only 145 killed and 160 wounded. yet Brit's losses were much higher. Canadians lost 280 near agira, and both cemeteries in Catania and Siracusa have 250. thats under a thousand total yet numbers say 12000 for brits and 10000 for US and I know that Motta St. Anastasia has over 5K germans in mass graves. Anyone know how to get better figures. My calculations for Primosole were approximate 170 people a day or about 8 an hour. All numbers are approximate in that certain commands did not report their numbers correctly. For instance, the air crews of the 46 C-47's that were shot down had 16 Airborne and 2 pilots and a jump master. almost 20 per plane times the 44 planes makes ~880 but no count is given for Horsa and waco gliders or c-47 losses. thus the numbers for July 13-17 are way low.
????? Not sure where you got your figures from Catania has 2020 casualties, Syracuse has 926 Agira has 404 plus you have those on the various memorials ? Not all these died at Primosole American pilots were involved but no land forces so I`m not sure where those 10,000 came from?? Are these not casualties for the whole of the Sicilian campaign ???? You cannot really `calculate` casualties in this way `8 casualties an hour` is too sanitised and calculations take away the horror of the battle. I know of one sadly, recent departure from this forum who would have loved `debating` the figures with you. Kyle
* The infantry involved in the capture of Primosole Bridge were the 151st Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division; being the 6, 8 and 9th Bns Durham Light Infantry. Their action took place between 15 and very early 18 July 1943. The CWGC (Commonwealth War Graves Commission) site reveals: 6th Bn - 27 Killed 8th Bn - 70 killed 9th Bn - 38 killed - actually shows 39 but one is buried in a cemetery in mainland Italy and is probably a PoW from an earlier part of the war who died in captivity The burials are mainly at Catania, but some are at Syracuse. However, some men's remains have never been identified or found and so they are commemorated on the Cassino Memorial (only). Casualties also include wounded and taken PoW, for which I could obtain information if required?! Best, Steve.
thanks guys, ya I notice that the berkshires have a memorial also so methinks the whole action judgeing from July 13th to August 8th for that part of the santo stefano line could be grouped together. I noticed that Fuseliers Durhams Berkshires were all rotated in and out of the line during the protracted action. So gestmations from what I read about 130 people died in that action but the 3 tanks for 44 RTR are not mentioned. I was trying to get a figure that included all forces for that area of action. The 10,000 number is mentioned in day of battle and also Patton's a soldiers story. The actual number quoted included missing and captured. Thus its high. 23k for english 6k for canadians and 14k for americans. Note the figures for Missing and captured were highest on the side. KNowing that a pissing war between Monty and Georgy was in full swing, I do not believe anything. BTW the sanitisation of numbers per hour was not my intention. When I calculate the intensity of a s civilwar battle , like Shiloh for instance. You can arrive at a figure that gives the impression of the intensity of the battle. Some battles like Franklin Tennessee were only 2.5 hours long yet killed more people per square foot per hour than many larger battles. Thus you get an idea of the pitch of the battle. FYI I will be skulking around primosole doing some B role footage filming along with Biazza ridge from June 20- july 10. Anyone in the area say hello.
* Hope this is of help, tron333... For the action at Primosole Bridge the following took part: 1st Parachute Brigade - 1st, 2nd & 3rd Parachute Battalions. 21st Independent Coy, Parachute Regiment - Pathfinders. 151st Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division - 6th, 8th & 9th Bns Durham Light Infantry. 44 Royal Tank Regiment - 6 killed per CWGC 3rd County of London Yeomanry - no information obtained from CWGC 'A' Squadron The Royals - no information obtained from CWGC Artillery support was from the 24th and 98th Field Regiments, RA - 1 and 8 killed respectively per CWGC Note: Only 295 of the 1,856 troops of the 1st Parachute Brigade were dropped on the target and of those 27 were killed, but per CWGC 59 men of the Parachute Regiment died in total (some were dropped in the sea). On the night of the 17/18th July 1943 (and after Primosole Bridge and the Bridgehead had been secured) the 168th Infantry Brigade, attached to 50th (Northumbrian) Division - 10th Bn Berkshire Regiment - 30 killed per CWGC 1st Bn London Scottish - no information obtained from CWGC 1st Bn London Irish Rifles - no information obtained from CWGC and the 69th Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division - 5th Bn East Yorkshire Regiment - 6 killed per CWGC 6th Bn Green Howards - 2 killed per CWGC 7th Bn Green Howards - 15 killed per CWGC would pass through the 151st Infantry Brigade. The plan was for the 168th Infantry Brigade, using the main road as its central axis, to undertake a frontal attack towards Catania, and the 69th Infantry Brigade to move westward to capture the railway and thereby screen/protect the left flank of the 168th Infantry Brigade. The 168th Infantry Brigade were a brigade in the 56th (London) Infantry Division and were attached to 50th (Northumbrian) Division for the duration of the fighting in Sicily (only). This was there first taste of action in WWII. It wasn't successful, they didn't get far being stopped about 100 yards short of the Fosse Bottaceto. At first light on 18 July 1943, the 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti-tank Regiment and the 2nd Bn Cheshire Regiment (Divisional MG battalion), both Divisional Troops of 50th (Northumbrian) Division, were moved into the Bridgehead to secure it. Here 50 Div remained until 5 August 1943, as Monty moved the axis of the 8th Army's advance away from the coast road. NB. The CWGC figures cover the dates of the actions in which the specific units were involved, but it does not mean that men wounded in earlier actions or men killed in other incidents are not included. They are therefore approximate. Best, Steve.
great ! Many thanks Steve. I am documenting the destruction of this battle field. Now it is zoned "Zona Industriale" and most of the area is now plowed under concrete slabs of large warehouses. It seems not to many people are interested in war memorials as they are vandalized. The Berkshire memorial on ss 115 was broken last year and they moved the durhams memorial to the green space on the east side of the new bridge which is very impressive the bridge that is. so I have pictures of the primosole bridge from the 40s the 90s ( prestressed concrete which was poorly designed) and the new one wihich is very impressive. I will be looking for the Orange bridge and lemon bridges but they are small prestressed concrete slabs that I understand have been plowed under. Note, Sicilians have war relics / battle fields for the past 2000 years, ww2 was a spot in time best not remembered in their minds.
Just a slight "addition" to Steve's note above: For 17th/18th July 1943: London Scottish casualties will be grouped by CWGC under Gordon Highlanders (1st Bttn London Scottish) - 15 killed. London Irish Rifles will be grouped under Royal Ulster Rifles (1st Bttn London Irish Rifles) - 33 killed. The LIRAssn will be visiting Fosso Botacetto in Sept 2016 - At Catania CWGC, we shall be remembering all the men who fell in Sicily including our Regimental forebears. best wishes
* Hello Richard, I tried the Gordon's and RUR connections and obtained the London Regiment sequels, but they didn't provide any data; frustrating. Thanks for clarifying! When in September will LIRAssn be going over to Sicily? Best, Steve.
Steve, As none of the RUR "core" battalions travelled to Italy, then a CWGC search on the RUR for this period only throws up 1 LIR's casualties at Fosso Bottaceto - most on the night of 17/18th July - 2 LIR didn't start fighting until early August near Centuripe...the London Scottish needs slightly more analysis as the Gordons had two other battalions on the island. The LIRAssn will be in Sicily from 9th to 14th Sep - at Catania CWGC on the afternoon of 10th Sept, unveiling a memorial on the 11th at Piedimonte Eteno and around the Simeto river south of Catania and up to Centuripe on the 12th. All are welcome to say hello. thanks
Just got back. Decided to take pictures on July 10 of Siracusa ponte grande and also droned the ponte drillio during a thunderstorm ( very rare for sicily this time of year). Also decided to drone plemira point , bay of pigs Baia di porcine
"Ubique Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt" CWGC lists the following Gunner dead that may have been killed in the battle for Prima Sole Bridge and the advance to it on 13 July 1 Air Landing Anti Tank Regiment RA - 9 dead 13-14 july 50 Div 102nd (Northumberland Hussars) Anti Tank Regiment RA 8 dead 13-14 July 124 Fd Regt RA 6 dead 14-18 july 74 fd Regt one dead 17 july 90 Fd Regt 2 dead 18 July
I know this is an old thread but would like to add a little for information purposes if it helps anyone. I have recently found that my Great uncle was in the 1st Bn of The London Scottish, Gordon highlanders Richard William Henry Jones (Bill). He died on the 18th July and is buried at Catania Cemetery, Sicily. His brother, my grandfather, was in the 8th Army and would have arrived in Italy shortly after his death? My Uncle has been sent information which says RWH was 1 of 141 killed that day possibly by German Paratroopers. We were hoping for more info and anything that anyone can supply would be helpful.
A couple of minor points: - the 1st London Scottish as part of 168th Brigade along with 1st London Irish Rifles and 10th Royal Berkshire Regiment, which was attached to the 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division in Sicily, was part of 8th Army - later the brigade re-joined 56th (London) Division which then served with both the 5th and 8th Army at various times on the Italian mainland. - As you may also know, 74 London Scots, London Irishmen and Royal Berkshires are listed by CWGC as being killed on 18th July 1943 near Fosso Bottaceto - a disastrous first day of combat for 168th Brigade during the Second World War....6 more 1 LS were killed on 17th July 1943. best wishes
