Queen's Regiments

Discussion in 'General' started by Al London, Jun 25, 2006.

  1. Al London

    Al London Member

    Hi,

    I've been trying to learn more about my grandfather's WW2 service for some time.

    This is what I know for sure:

    [1] He was at Dunkirk (He told his family this).

    [2] We have a photo of him and a small group clearly holding a Desert Rat flag that we do presume was taken during WW2.

    [3] His 1944 marriage certificate states the following in the occupation field: 2b93351 Sergeant Queen's Royal Regiment (motor transport fitter).

    [4] His army service records reveal he was with the Scotts Guards and then Royal Fusiliers from 1930 - 1938 before becoming an Army Reserve. Then, in 1939 he was mobilised and his service dates after this are as follows:
    Home: 1/9/39 - 4/10/39
    France B.E.F.: 5/10/39 - 31/5/40
    Home: 1-6-40 - 25/5/42
    Middle East: 26/5/42 - 9/9/43
    North Africa: 10/9/43 - 5/1/44
    Home: 6/1/44 - 3/6/44
    North West Europe: 4/6/44 - 14/6/44
    Wounded In Action
    Home: 15/6/44 - 12/11/44
    North West Europe: 13/11/44 - 7/12/44
    Home: 8/12/44 - 18/5/45
    Annoyingly, his service records do not say anything about what regiment he was mobilised to in 1939.

    I have visited every museum I can think to go to, asked on every website I can find to ask on etc to try to establish which batallion of which regiment he may have been mobilised to and, so far, everyone including me has been thinking Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment, and often possibly 1st/5th or 1st/6th battalion. I have found nothing definate to date though.

    What I would like to ask is: Is it possible it could have been the QUEEN'S OWN ROYAL WEST KENT REGIMENT not the Surrey one? I would appreciate anyone's opinion on this.

    Thanks

    Allie
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  3. Al London

    Al London Member

    Thank for that link.

    Surreys is what I originally guessed and what everyone else I've asked has guessed too.

    I'm just not getting very far with my research, so I suppose I'm sort of going back to basics, seeing could I have jumped to any wrong conclusions early in my thinking, like that it must be Surreys not Kents.

    Oh if only I could get my hands on of pictures of all the WW2 Surreys / Kents!

    Allie
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Can you post any pictures of him at all?
    Cap badge, other Insignia? The Desert Rat flag to me is the biggest clue.
     
  5. Al London

    Al London Member

    Hi,

    The attached is the only photo we have. (My grandfather is the man in the middle in the front sitting row.)

    thanks

    Allie
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Al London

    Al London Member

    Sorry, we don't have cap badge or anything like that also.

    The main reasons I am wondering lately could it possibly be Kents not Surreys are [a] Everyone looks at his service records and says he was obviously involved in D-Day based on the dates and therefore it must be Surreys but none of his children recall him ever saying he was at D-Day and He was from Lewisham and I believe the Kents had a lot of soldiers from Lewisham in their ranks.

    Allie
     
  7. Al London

    Al London Member

    Admittedly, if I really stare at the cap badges in that photo at the highest res I can get, they do look like Surrey cap badges to me. Image attached to show this.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    B*gger. Can't blow up the cap badge with enough definition to ID it.
    But it ain't anything like Surrey's or West Kents.
     
  9. Al London

    Al London Member

    I have a book of formal posed photos of my great grandfather's entire batallion around 1917. If only I could get the same thing of the Queen's Royal Regiment batallions taken in WW2 I'd be laughing as I could find my grandfather if he was there, but I guess such books just don't exist as the Queen's Royal Regiment museum doesn't have any and I've never seen any such thing anywhere else to date either.
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Admittedly, if I really stare at the cap badges in that photo at the highest res I can get, they do look like Surrey cap badges to me. Image attached to show this.
    Now I've seen your image it very very very definately is the Lamb and flag of the Queen's West Surrey Regiment.
    http://www.militarybadges.info/images/post14/25.jpg
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Al London

    Al London Member

    B*gger. Can't blow up the cap badge with enough definition to ID it.
    But it ain't anything like Surrey's or West Kents.

    I though it was like Surrey (pics of Kent + Surrey cap badges attached though I don't think either is a photo of a WW2 cap badge). Do you not think so?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Al London

    Al London Member

    Sorry Owen, I see you do think so too now... It was just that I posted the enlarged scan after you wrote back.
     
  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm sure it is the "Mutton Lancers" but according to Malcolm Bellis, 1/5 and 1/6 Queens did not join 7th Armoured until October 1942 5 months in transit seems a long time.

    Did Infantry Brigades attached to Armoured Divisions wear the black beret ?

    Have you tried the Tank Museum at Bovington ?
     
  14. Al London

    Al London Member

    I'm sure it is the "Mutton Lancers" but according to Malcolm Bellis, 1/5 and 1/6 Queens did not join 7th Armoured until October 1942 5 months in transit seems a long time.

    I have bought numerous books on with the aim of working out where 1/5, 1/6 and 1/7 were throughout the war but nothing seems to match exactly for me. For example, starting at the beginning, I've read 1/5, 1/6 & 1/7 landed in France on 3rd of April 1940 and then 1/7 was evacuated on 30th May followed by 1/5 and 1/6 on 31st May. My grandfather was in "France BEF" from 5/10/39 - 31/5/40 according to his record though? I don't know if this should be read to mean he was actually in France all this time though?

    Did Infantry Brigades attached to Armoured Divisions wear the black beret ?

    I have no idea I'm afraid.

    Have you tried the Tank Museum at Bovington ?

    No I haven't. Is there a reason I should visit that museum?

    Allie
     
  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I think we should allow a bit of lee-way on BEF dates as many records were lost in France and War Diaries were written up afterwards. I assume there were a lot of soggy, illegible Pay-Books also. I have checked Bellis against Battalion histories for my Grandfather and the dates given do seem to comply with embarkation dates.

    I have read that some Infantry units which converted to armour retained their cap badges whilst others adopted the RAC badge but my research has not lead towards armour so I am vague on this and didn't think it applied to Battalions forming part of Infantry Brigades attached to Armoured Divisions. I hoped someone else on the forum might know !


    I don't know if you need to visit Bovington but their library and research documents are extremely well regarded and go beyond what might be expected. They may be able to tie your dates in with 7th Armoured Div. or at least give you new avenues to research.

    http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/library.html
     
  16. Al London

    Al London Member

    Thanks for your last message rikp.

    I contacted the tank museum but they don't really have anything of use to me on the Queen's Royal Regiment. They replied to my enquiry promptly though so I can see they are good.
     
  17. kirkes lamb

    kirkes lamb Junior Member

    It is a Queens cap badge no doubts when you see the blow up, however I would say it was a post wa photo as they qall seem to have medal ribbons and also the beret is well after the war! My father was with the Queens from 1935 to 1950 and I have photos of him in 1947 with the Khali beret on and the larger badges! Try the Surrey Archives in Guildford
     
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    This photo has to be taken around 1950 as I've photos of British Infantrymen in black* berets then.
    As they are all SNCOs and other old soldiers I'd say they were the old hands from WW2 who were still serving and had been in 7th Armd, that's why they got their old flag out.


    * Black berets were RTR only, Other berets were very, very dark blue.
    (Well mine was in the 1980s. One of our Lt was ex-RTR always moaned at one L/Cpl who wore a black beret saying, you were never in the RTR so get that black beret off.)
     
  19. Al London

    Al London Member

    Thanks Owen.

    All I can say about the possibility of my grandfather being in a photo like this taken after the war is:

    [1] He left the army in 1945. There is no doubt about this.

    [2] He never went to any reunions as far as his wife and children knew. However, it is not impossible he went to a reunion type event one day without his family knowing of this and a photo was taken then.

    He was born in 1912, so if this photo was taken about 1950, he would have been about 38. I guess, looking at that photo, he could have been 38 in it.

    Al
     
  20. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Sure he never joined the TA?
     

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