Query about transfer from SACS to ILH/KR - Cpl. John Chalis Walter - Service No. 220006

Hi all

I have a medal grouping to a chap who served in the SATC with SA Corps of Signals during WW2. His record confirms he served with the SACS, and much of his record confirms he primarily served as part of the 17th Armoured Brigade's Signal Squadron (part of SA 6th Armoured Division).

His record shows that on 1 November 1943 he was posted from 17th Armoured Brigade's Signal Squadron into the ILH/Kimberley Regiment.

A quick note on the regiment: 'The Kimberley Regiment served as a motorised battalion together with the Imperial Light Horse (ILH), in the armoured brigade of the 6th SA Armoured Division throughout the Italian campaign in World War 2. During this campaign it won more battle honours and more awards for bravery in the field, but also suffered more casualties in doing so than any other SA Regiment in the campaign." (Source: The Kimberley Regiment Association 2010 and Lt Col M. van Schalkwyk, SO1 PO NC).'

According to his record he served with the ILH/Kim regiment throughout his time in Italy with the 6SA Armoured Division until he was transferred back to 17th Armoured Brigade's Signal Squadron on 31 July 1945 after hostilities in Europe ended.

My question is, during his time in the ILH/Kimberley Regiment was he likely deployed as a Signalman with that unit, or is it more likely he was taken out of that role upon his transfer and re-designated more as a fighting infantryman? I obviously appreciate signalman were still combat troops and exposed to the same risks - I'm more curious whether he would have been thrown in with fighting platoons rather than acting as comms for the unit. Or is it a case that we would never know without being able to speak to the man himself?

Thanks in advance for any help
Tom









I forgot to include a photo of John's actual medals:

 

TomP,

His name and number have not appeared here before your post.

A search online with: "17th Armoured Brigade'" site:ww2talk.com found one thread: South African Corps Of Signals - Italy, East & North Africa which states there was an 11th Armd Brigade, not a 17th. Confirmed by: 6th South African Armoured Division - Wikipedia

Tried "11th" etc and that found one thread: South African Corps Of Signals - Italy, East & North Africa

There are more threads here if you search with: "south african armoured division'" site:ww2talk.com They help provide the context.

Good luck.

 

Hi David

I believe the 17th Armoured Brigade's Signal Squadron were a signal squadron of tank combined arms trained troops - presumably often deployed as part of the Armoured contingent for the 6SA Armoured Division, the 11th South African Armoured Brigade.

Incidentally, the ILH/Kimberley Regiment were part of the same 11th South African Armoured Brigade.

I found inclusion of them in the following link: “Red Tabs” Life and death in the 6th South African Armoured Division, 1943 – 1945. Below is an extract from this PDF showing the Order of Battle by May 1944. Based on John's service record, he was already serving in the ILH/Kim R at this stage (served with them from 01/11/1943 - 31/07/1945) but it shows that his previous unit (17th Armoured Brigade's Signal Squadron) were still part of the Division.

I do have a couple of reference books but unfortunately no access to them at current as I am out of the country - but possible anybody else with copies of 'Come back to Portofino' by James Bourhill or 'The Black Beret The History of South Africa's Armoured Forces Volume 2 - The Italian Campaign 1943-45 and Post-War South Africa 1946-1961' by Willem Steenkamp could assist!

I wonder if anybody else knows of any other instances or accounts of troops transferred from a Signals unit into a motorised Infantry unit and whether he would have been a frontline fighting trooper or acting radioman for the same?

All the best
Tom

 

TomP,

The infantry battalions in the list appear to be up to strength in May 1944. Likewise your target unit.

 

Just a suggestion based on my familiarity with British organisation, which I appreciate would not necessarily reflect practice in the South African forces.

The ILH/KimR was serving as the Motor Battalion for 11 SA Armd Bde. In the equivalent British and Canadian units, Armd Div Sigs would have provided the Motor Bn with a Troop from the Sqn serving the Armd Bde. That Tp would have included at least two rear link wireless vehicles, one on the Bde command net and other to stay with the rear echelon transport, plus electricians and instrument mechanics to undertaking battery charging and assist with Unit maintenance of its wireless equipment. Tps of that type would effectively become part of the Unit they were attached to and move with it, mess with it and so on.

Sadly I've never got me greedy mitts on SA WE tables to see how they compared with British and other nations using the British system so it is only a suggestion. I think it would be odd for him to transfer fully to the Infantry and then back to Signals, but there should have been a slot for a Signals subunit to be routinely attached to the Bn that he served with.

Gary

 

Thanks for your reply Gary.

I suppose that’s my query really, does his noting down as being posted on strength for the ILH/Kim Regiment and off strength from the signals squadron mean he was no longer acting in that capacity (signals) - or was it commonplace for records to be recoded as above even if he was still effectively working for the signals squadron but exclusively for the ILH/Kim Regiment? I’m sure many military records would reflect a signals unit (or other corps units e.g. engineers etc) which would have in fact served with various units but this might not be recorded specifically on their service record?

For example I have another group of medals to a different chap who enlisted and served with the SA Artillery corps - but later in the war he was shown as being transferred and put on strength into the Witwatersrand Rifles/De La Rey Regiment (WR/DLR) for 12 months during the Italian campaign - this was a motorised infantry regiment/battalion which made up part of the other SA brigade in the Division, the 12th Motorised Infantry Brigade. I had assumed this meant his role changed entirely and he became an infantryman with that regiment. Just another example of a ‘Corps’ man being formally down as ‘on strength’ for an infantry battalion/regiment.

I know some of the units also suffered from manpower issues as the campaign dragged on, particularly since all SA troops serving overseas in Italy had to be entirely from volunteers - that’s partly why so many of the regiments (including the ILH/Kim Regiment & WR/DLR) were amalgamated in the first place.

That’s why I wonder whether Cpl Walter was moved into the ILH/Kim R but not as a signalman - but then when hostilities ended in Italy and Europe as a whole - he was returned to his Signal Squadron since he would have already had the training and knowledge to work as a signalman and had actually been promoted to the rank of a junior NCO during his time fighting with the regiment in Italy.

I wonder what people think?

Thanks for your replies and all the best
Tom