RECCE, but what unit/regiment?

Discussion in 'Recce' started by etybagem, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. etybagem

    etybagem Junior Member

    The Fighting 52nd Recce by Carl Shilleto pub 2000.
    Thanks for the book titles. Amazon had 3 copies (used) of the Shilleto book so I have ordered one. I thought that I had tracked down Time Spent by Whitfield but it had been sold - no price mentioned but probably expensive anyway.
    :)
     
  2. calgarian

    calgarian Junior Member

    Hi etybagem,
    I can e.mail you photos I took from The Echelon Episodes, that shows the names of all of the personnel of "A" Echelon 52nd (L) Div. Recce Regiment. However, your Uncle's name is not on this list. My father was a Sergeant in this Echelon. If you would like them anyway just let me know your e.mail address.
    Carl Shilleto's book is very good. I recently read it
    Regards,
    Fraser Allison
     
  3. etybagem

    etybagem Junior Member

    About a year ago I asked in the forum (http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/recce/28181-recce-but-what-unit-regiment.html) for information on my late uncle Henry Thomas McGeown and discovered from comments that he appeared to have served in 52nd Recce during WW2. Recently, after a long wait, I received details of his service from the Army Personnel Centre. While interesting it still leaves me much in the dark and I wonder if forum members might please be able to add colour, and explanation, to some of the general information received.
    Henry (Army No. 3058787) was posted to ITC The Royal Scots on 16/10/39 (Glencorse barracks). He eventually served in the army for 6 years 178 days, including a stint with the Army on the Rhine. It seems that he embarked from Southampton on 11/6/1940 to enter the Theatre of War but after only 6 days was back in the UK on 17/6/1940. Where would he have been for those six days given that the evacuation of Dunkirk was completed on 4/6/40? Henry is listed as ‘Home’ until 31/8/1944.
    It seems that on 1/10/44 he was mustered as driver operator with the 52 Bn Recce Corp. On 23/3/42 he was mustered as trooper with 52(L) Divl Recce Regt and on 1/5/42 was transferred to ‘A’ Sqn. Followed by an upgrade from Class III to Class II as driver operator Group C. Still with 52(L) Divl Recce, he was transferred to RAC on 1/1/44. On 1/9/44 he embarked for NWE, disembarking on 6/9/44. Has anyone any knowledge of where he might have disembarked and subsequent action he might have been involved in until the end of WW2?
    Decorations he received were the 1939/43 Star (34/44 52 Div Recce Rgt), War Medal 1939/45, the France/Germany Star and what appears to read the Bzoby Red but surely can’t be that – it’s certainly not listed among the WW2 decorations.
    On 5/1/46, Lt. Col J Stormonth-Darling described Henry as having been in this Regiment for 5 years and his service as ‘quite excellent, always cheerful & willing. He is an extremely competent D/O and his coolness and methodical brain was often responsible for good communications. He was considered by me and all a most reliable person on whom a great deal often depended. He will be missed by his Sqdn.’ What is a D/O – Divisional Officer?
    Any information gratefully received.
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    D/O= Driver/Operator.

    (I'm 99.9999% sure... ;) )


    edit: you answered it in your own post.
    It seems that on 1/10/44 he was mustered as driver operator

    :D
     
  5. etybagem

    etybagem Junior Member

    Stupid me, given that he was a driver operator!!!!
     
  6. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Etbagem
    If you require further information then you should consider obtaining the war diaries from the National Archieves they will give you a day by day view of the regiment.
    if you cannot get to Kew to view the diaries then there are members who offer a research/copying service for a modest price.

    ITC is Infantry Training Center
    52 (L) is the 52 Lowland Division
     
  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    It seems that he embarked from Southampton on 11/6/1940 to enter the Theatre of War but after only 6 days was back in the UK on 17/6/1940.


    Could be 2nd BEF - If you can tell me the unit he left Southampton with I'll tell you if they were in France and when.

    I have the 52nd Recce diary for when he joined-I'll check it later and see if there is a nominal roll inside it.
     
  8. etybagem

    etybagem Junior Member

    It looks as though Henry was still with the Royal Scots on 11/6/40 but in the 7/9th battalion, to which he was posted on 2/5/40. A now deceased relative once told me that Henry's regiment was amongst the last of those to escape from Dunkirk after being engaged in rearguard/holding action. However, as the 'little ships armada' completed its evacuation task a week before Henry entered the Theatre of War this seems unlikely.
    I see from Carl Shilleto's book 'The Fighting Fifty-Second Recce' that the 52nd (L) Infantry Division embarked on 1/9/44 from Tilbury on the Fort Covington, Fort Musquarro, Empire Rival and Empire Swordsman, disembarking at Arromanches on 6/9/44. As Henry's dates for embarking and disembarking are the same it appears likely that Henry was on one of those four ships and perhaps his subsequent war follows that detailed in the book?
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Its quite common for people to say their relatives were at Dunkirk if they were in France during 1940.

    I can confirm from the infomation you have given he went to France with the 7/9th Royal Scots who were in 155 Infantry Brigade as part of the 52nd Lowland Division. They were part of the 2nd BEF sent to France after Dunkirk.

    I have the 7/9 War Diary for June 1940 and I'll be back in a bit ;)
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Edited version of the diary:

    The Battalion was based in Burley House Woolton Hill, Newbury before deploying to France.

    The Battalion didn't move to Southampton until 12th June at 0230hrs so the date you have given tells me he was part of the Battalions Advance party consisting of 1 Officer and 2 O/R's in a car. I suspect he would have been the driver.

    The main part of the battalion left Southampton on the SS Manxman on 12th June at 1600hrs and arrived at St Malo Harbour at 1100hrs on 13th June. After they disembarked they marched 8 miles to a rest camp 5 miles from Limmonnier. After what was a stay of a couple of hours they marched to the train station at Limmonnier and boarded a train which left to a unknown destination at 2000hrs.

    At 0500hrs on 14th June the train arrived at Sille La Guillaume station where the battalion was met by the Staff Captain Brigade and
    Captain Normand of the advance party (I guess you man was there to, either as his driver or possible batman).

    The battalion marched of to their bivouac area near Conlie with the Bn HQ going to La Goupillere Farm. On arrival at the farm all the Bn transport was found less their carriers having arrived the night before.

    At 1300hrs the carriers arrived at Sille La Guillaume. They were de-trained and formed up to take the Bn baggage from the station to the HQ. At 1700hrs the vehicles arrived at Bn HQ. The IO found Agent de Liason Weiss at La Goupillere who had reported for liason duties with the battalion. Maps were issued.

    At 2300hrs orders were received from brigade that the battalion would move through the night by MT . The CO and Adjutant go to Brigade HQ to receive the battalions movement orders.


    More later ;)
     
    Owen likes this.
  11. etybagem

    etybagem Junior Member

    Thank you for what you have posted so far Drew5233; it is all fascinating stuff. By the way, Henry didn't qualify as a driver operator until October 1941 after he had been posted to 52 Recce in January that year.
     
  12. manchester

    manchester Member

    Hi I am new to this very interesting site; regarding the 52nd Lowland Division taking part in the Airborne operation of Market Garden. I did extensive research about my late uncle Wayne Wilfred Williams who started his Army service in the Royal Welch. He was transferred into the 52nd Lowland Division; The Light Anti - Aircraft 108 Regiment. I have his Army service record and during research my study became confused. As a family we were always told that he went to the battle of Arnhem on a Glider! After establishing that the 52nd Lowland Division did not take part in the Airborne operation confusion happened. Indeed the Mountain Regiment trained as a decoy to break into Norway and became Air-Transportable! The battle of Arnhem bridge did not go to plan ( well documented) therefore the 52nd were not called upon to hold Air fields in Holland, however my late uncle had been transferred from the 52nd Lowland Division into the First Allied Airborne Army. As the battle changed my late uncle was assigned to 'C' Battery Allied Airborne Army who flew on a glider on the 23rd September 1944 to Nijmegen. The American website TESTOMANY is a brilliant source. They flew out of R A F Cotters more (Rutland). The FAAA - 82nd Airborne-(American)- C Battery 80th Anti-Aircraft - Anti -Tank parachute Battalion/ Their task was to provide relief for the parachute regiments in the vicinity of Grave and Nijmegen. My uncle's service record does not mention Arnhem ( just NWE) He was wounded in early October ( foot) My point is that members of the 52nd Lowland Division did take part in the Battle of Arnhem ( Airborne). Does anybody have any additional information on this subject. Many Thanks Wayne A Williams.
     
  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    welcome to the forum Wayne
    I am sure our Airborne and Recce members will be along shortly to try to add more info

    regards
    Clive
     
  14. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Manchester,

    Hello and welcome to the Forum.

    Unfortunately, sometimes when researching Service records, you find answers but more than likely more questions that have to be answered.

    It makes life interesting!

    Regards and good luck with your Research.

    Tom
     
  15. manchester

    manchester Member

    Thanks for the welcome guys! Looking forward to hearing information on the 52nd Lowland Division ( Airborne in particular)
     
  16. Chotie's Daughter

    Chotie's Daughter Chotie's Daughter

    Hello all

    I'm blogging some info on 52nd (Lowland) Reconnaissance Regiment on http://www.chotiedarling.co.uk/ (started five years ago to tell the story of my mother's wartime sweetheart Lt. Richard Williams from his war letters). He was the 61st Reconnaissance Regiment but when this was disbanded at the beginning of February 1945 he joined the 52nd Recce.

    I've found the Tank Museum library at Bovington in Dorset holds a lot of information on 52nd (Lowland) Reconnaissance Regiment including copies of their war diary, 'Time Spent' and 'Mountain and Flood' and they are very helpful if you arrange a visit in advance. The museum is also well worth a visit so allow some time to browse!

    Chotie's Daughter
     
  17. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Just pure speculation
    If the Lowland Division was intended to Air land at Deelen might not a small recce forward party have gone in by glider in the original assault .
    10 Paras final objective was Deelen any sign of attachments to 4 Bde HQ?. This might be a reason why/if a recce signaler was there.
     
  18. manchester

    manchester Member

    Hi my late uncle Wayne Wilfred Williams:
    After more research ( Army Flying Museum) The 52nd Lowland/ American Engineering unit & 2nd air landing LAA Battery were due to fly in gliders to Deelan Airfield on the 19th sept 1944 when the Arnhem Bridge was taken. This never happened, however the American paras found airstrip B-82 Grave and the order was given!

    On my uncles service record it states: 23HH/ 2/44 SY; 23HH= order given/ 2/44 2 days operation SY= code RAF SALTBY!

    The MOD pensions Department ( NOT THE ARMY) removed documents:- soldiers that flew into battle were given better pensions, therefore documents were missing! I received these records ( more detailed than records) casualty forms ect and these proved invaluable!

    Wilfred was transferred into the 2nd air landing LAA Battery and flew from RAF Saltby ( not in gliders) but 209 C-47 Dakotas on the 26th September 1944 landing at Grave/ B-82! This airstrip was held for 2 days only ( the battle was lost) the RAF took over and the airman were disburse into the 2nd Army!

    My uncle was wounded on the 9th October 1944 on the Island! He returned to Germany and I think he went to Belson?

    My point is that although the 52nd Lowland never flew into battle as unit Wilfred 108 LAA Regiment went with a different unit. He later re-joined 354 battery on the Island where he was wounded: The ADFAG/ Airfield Delivery Forward Airfield Group went with the 2nd airlanding LAA battery and little is known about this operation, as the events at Arnhem bridge overlooked this action!
    As a family we were always aware Wilfred flew into action / not seaborne! It took some working out but I got there in the end.
     
  19. BuryRussell

    BuryRussell New Member


    Hi

    I'm new on here and trying to figure out my grandfather's movements. He was in the 52nd Lowland Recce. I actually have his written notes of where he was with dates on, autograph books with illustrations and poems from his comrades and some maps and photos. I have read lots on where the Recce corps were but as I said, I have his own notes and what he was involved in and autograph books, if anyone is interested?

    He was Lance Corporal John Ramsay Russell later Sgt with the 13/18th Queens Own Royal Husards.

    Many thanks

    Joanne
     
  20. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Hi Joanne welcome to the forum. Great to have another Recce on board. We would be very interested in what you have about your Grandfather. It would be a good idea if you posted any information that you would like to share with us in a separate post in this section headed with your Grandfathers name.

    Cheers
    Paul
     
    4jonboy likes this.

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