Reenactment: What About The Germans?

I general, we have definitely become fatter in the western world. The following photograph of is of a reunion of my father's (directly under the arrow) WW2 Home Guard unit taken shortly after the war. Most of these men are in their 50s and 60s and are veterans of WW1. There are also two of my uncles (one standing to my father's left, the other the only one with folded arms (WW1 East Lancashire Regiment Veterans).

The photo was taken in front of the Rose & Crown (the unit's "unofficial" wartime HQ ) as they were preparing to depart on a bus trip to the Lake District.

There aren't any "pot bellies" that I can see!

 

This is a group of re-enactors taken recently1 not the size of some of them!!


View attachment 878

 

For Goodness Sake,

What Is The Problem?

I would rather see a group of middle aged, pot-bellied men making an effort to re-enact the period and ENJOYING THEMSELVES than wait for a group of gangling teenagers to make the effort to get involved, which may well require them to drag their "realistic" bodies away from a televison, playstation or other form of computer game.

I go to a lot of these events and I see people of all shapes, sizes and ages wearing period outfits. They are often listening or danciing to music of the 1940's and appear to be having a great time. The atmosphere is always highly enjoyable. At the same time there are often parents explaining to their children what is going on and what it's all about.

Perhaps it would be better to stop all such events, close down Forums such as these and never spaek of war again. Then take all pot-bellied middle aged men and dispose of them. (Does this start to have a certain ring to it!)

Whilst I wholly respect peoples individual opinions on any subject all I can say is , GET A GRIP! It's Just Re-Enactment, Not Real Life!

PAUL J :angry:

 

Originally posted by Paul Johnson@Jul 20 2005, 07:31 AM


Hi Paul,

I was interested in the reference to the women in your signature and came across the post of 12/1/2005.

There was a couple of these in Australia as well. One publised widely and the other kept fairly quiet.

1942

May 22 Melbourne: Brownout Murders - American soldier Edward Leonski arrested and charged over the murders of 3 women. He is found guilty and hanged at Pentridge Gaol on November 9

The other was a Private Fernandez who was found guilty by an American Court Martial and taken from Australia by the US and hung in "Oro-Bay" in New Guinea.

There is a piece written at the address below.

http://www.fiftyplusnews.com/bertie/april02.shtml

 

Hi Spidge,

Thanks for the info. I always find these facts interesting as these tend to be the forgotten names amongst the casualties.

Thanks Again

Regards

PAUL JOHNSON

 

I have only had little experience with German unit re-enactors but the ones I have spoken to, which were the Luftwaffe Field Division and the German Military Police were very interested in the educational aspect and the historical correctness of what they did.
From what I have seen on the reenacting forum on the web some of the German units are very proffessional and act as extras in many TV and film works. I am sure that there is a minority which seems to spoil things for the greater number. I happen to be bemused by these re-enactors of the German troops on the British mainland, perhaps they should move to der Kanal Inseln? The Channel Islands? Joke of course!
I am too big to re-enact the rationed slim line tommy so I re enact in a Home Guard unit, reserved occipation etc.
Kind regards
MG

 

Just with regard to period skinniness, I would like to enlighten you with a headline quote from the Harrogate Advertiser Newspaper, from an October issue in 1940:
"Outsizes for Home Guards"
The short article explains how uniforms are now being made in outsizes due to the fact that some volunteers will not fit into the regular army issued sizes.
Interestingly the forst 500 uniforms for the local Home Guard were made by Sir Montague Burton, owner of Burtons tailors. One of his fellow officers supplied the cloth and they were made up for all ranks in the officer quality Barathea Wool!
So this shows that not everyone was like the bus tour photo!
There is a series of training stills of HG members in a book I have and one chap is most definately an outsize!!!
Kind regards
MG

 

(Colonel Gubbins @ Dec 4 2005, 08:10 PM) [post=42638]Just with regard to period skinniness, I would like to enlighten you with a headline quote from the Harrogate Advertiser Newspaper, from an October issue in 1940:
"Outsizes for Home Guards"
The short article explains how uniforms are now being made in outsizes due to the fact that some volunteers will not fit into the regular army issued sizes.
Interestingly the forst 500 uniforms for the local Home Guard were made by Sir Montague Burton, owner of Burtons tailors. One of his fellow officers supplied the cloth and they were made up for all ranks in the officer quality Barathea Wool!
So this shows that not everyone was like the bus tour photo!
There is a series of training stills of HG members in a book I have and one chap is most definately an outsize!!!
Kind regards
MG
[/b]

I am sure there were portly LDV/HG volunteers, however, I personally do not recall any in our local units. Of course, the average middle-aged (plus) LDV/HG volunteer was, I imagine, somewhat plumper than the average regular army recruit of the period.


LDV volunteers - early 1940


My father's HG unit - late 1940

 

Thought you might be interested in an update of re-enactment group activities.

Article courtesy of the Jewish Chonicle

 

Here's a few photos from the Bank holiday Monday re-enactmant event (at Rawtenstall on the East Lancashire Railway) that Ron mentioned.


Steam train arriving from Bury

 

Intereting thread and great photos John.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with re-enacters dressing as SS sporting swastikas, as long as the battle they're re-enacting included SS.

I can understand how some people may be sensitive to it but it's all just a bit of fun whilst remembering and educating history.

If I was sensitive to it, I simply wouldn't attend.

 

Well, when you have people playing cops and robbers you can't have the robbers dressing like cops...

If you look at reenactment as a living museum, you have to have them using swastikas, hammers and sickles, Milice gammas, etc. Problem is when people looking and acting differently. Can we really rewrite history?

For myself I gave up playing cowboys and injuns long ago. But this is an interesting thread, worth a re-read from the beginning.

 

My 2 cents:

As a re-enactor (of British and American forces) I have no problem with re-enactors portraying German forces where appropriate. You cannot teach people the history if you only tell one side of the story - 'Allies = Good, Germans = Bad' just doesnt cut it imo. Most German re-enactors that I have encountered have all been highly personable, and knowledgable about the units they are protraying, and more than willing educate people.

Battle re-enactments (when done right) are highly entertaining for people of all ages, and get people interested in what's going on. For such events to occur you need an enemy, and of course in the vast majority of occasions the allies 'win'.

However, I don't think German re-enactors have a place at the railway events that seem to be so common now. The mixing of allied and axis troops in one setting just doesn't seem right to me. All the railway events I have been to have supposed to be set in England, during the war...what are Germans doing there? Wrong wrong wrong. It spoils the atmosphere that the other re-enactors try to create.

The North Yorkshire Moors Railway event in Pickering have got it right (in my opinion). Axis troops are banned (if in uniform) from the main stations on the line, but one station is transformed to 'a village in occupied France' where the German re-enactors are based. The atmosphere is great at each station and not spoiled by 'things that shouldn't be there'.

 

The re enactmnent is harmless if somwe common sense is applied , the "shooting of prisoners" is stupid - as reported in the Sun - doing this is silly no matter who does it.

"Living history" is fine of thopse doing it do it other than to dress up and look "cool" or "macho" , context and an understanding of the times and events have to stand for something and be a central part of what is going on.

Flags and emblems - context and a degree of being sensible.

The BBc show last year some of the reenactors who refused to talk to BBC did themselves no favours and BBC came out of the show looking less than reasonable - their finding and focusing on Irving was nothing to do with anything other than Irving and his need to grab a headline and BBC being stupid enough to give it to him.

 

Where is this? Remember this is an international forum. I know it's the case in Germany, but not on Holland or the US.

Regards,

Marco

I am British and live in Berlin, Germany. I think that you are mistaken.

The Swastika and other Nazi symbols are allowed to be shown in Museums displaying Militaria, including Aircraft. A photo attached from the Luftwaffen Museum proves the point.

Also when filming WW2 period films, these symblos are allowed.

Otherwise yes, all Nazi symbols are banned in public places within Germany.

Regards
Tom

 

The BBc show last year some of the reenactors who refused to talk to BBc did themselves no favours and BBC came out of the show looking less than reasonable - their fiding and focusing on Irving was nothing to do with anything other than irving and his need to grab a headline and BBC being stupid enough to give it to him.

I don't know which programme you're talking about, but as far as television goes I think re-enactors are in a no win situation. Particularly considering the C4 show about "Nazis at the War and Peace Show". A horrific piece of one sided crap that I cannot believe could be considered journalism. Unfortunately those who watched it now believe that the War and Peace show is infact a hive for Neo-Nazis. Many re-enactors are wary about giving interviews because it's likely the program makers don't have a clue about why we do it, and therefore put their own spin on it.

90% of the news articles I see about re-enactment are portrayed in a negative light, and only focus on errors in judgement by individuals yet it reflects on the community as a whole.

The article in the Sun that you mentioned is a case in point. A single re-enactor (I use the term loosely) took it upon himself to perform the 'execution' without the knowledge of the event organisers, or the other re-enactors yet his actions allowed the media to take a swipe at the re-enactment community as a whole. Needless to say, the execution didn't repeat itself on the second day of the event. I don't know the bloke, but I get the impression that he's not exactly held in the highest of regards within the community.

 

I am British and live in Berlin, Germany. I think that you are mistaken.

The Swastika and other Nazi symbols are allowed to be shown in Museums displaying Militaria, including Aircraft. A photo attached from the Luftwaffen Museum proves the point.

Also when filming WW2 period films, these symblos are allowed.

Otherwise yes, all Nazi symbols are banned in public places within Germany.

Regards
Tom


I think this raises an interesting question. Nazi symbols are allowed in museums. What are museums for? To educate us about history. Aren't living historians doing just the same thing? Educating us about history, but interactively and on a personal level. What is the difference between a swastika on an aircraft in a museum, and a swastika worn on a vintage uniform in a living history setting at a WW2 event?

In my opinion, no difference at all.

 

I agree, tmm. My objections above were prompted by less than responsible or educating behavious such as you mentioned. Otherwise as a hobby this is all fine with me.

 

I think this raises an interesting question. Nazi symbols are allowed in museums. What are museums for? To educate us about history. Aren't living historians doing just the same thing? Educating us about history, but interactively and on a personal level. What is the difference between a swastika on an aircraft in a museum, and a swastika worn on a vintage uniform in a living history setting at a WW2 event?

In my opinion, no difference at all.

The problem isn't with actors in my opinion, the problem is with those "uninformed people" who are going to take such historical uses and use them for their own good. Ex, a actor playing a SS officer is used has a platform by Neo Nazi's. If that made sense, in simpe terms it's the fault of the Neo Nazi's!

 

I have honestly never met a German re-enactor who was a Neo-Nazi, or even behaved in such a manner that wasn't respectful to what re-enactors try to achieve. I'm not saying they don't exist and use re-enactment as a vehicle for their beliefs, but I have not personally seen or heard of any. And almost certainly, anyone who did would not be welcome in most if not all of the established re-enactment groups in this country (Talking about England, as I have no knowledge about any other countries).