I see there are a couple of threads with helpful comment on this subject, particularly the Stats thread. Fall of France/Dunkirk 1940 Related Statistics Repatriation of French Navy Troops November 1940 I wonder if there are others that I should read (I've tried a search of this Forum) ? Is there a reliable book in English that covers this subject ? I am interested in actual figures- numbers/dates for the repatriations so as to better understand the options that these soldiers may have had as to whether or not to join Free French etc. Thanks Charlie
As far as the French Army was concerned - they would have had no option to join the Free French as at the time of their repatriation this did not exist. Britain did not recognise Charles de Gaulle as leading a French administration in exile until 28th June 1940. Legally the soldiers evacuatrd at Dunkirk remained under command of the regular French Army. The soldiers barely had time to get a cup pf coffee before being organised and embarked for a return to France
Thanks for the reply, Robert. I believe CdG made his first broadcast from UK 18/6/40 in response to Petain's call of 17/6 although not many in France may have heard it. I am aware of the rapid turnaround of the 'majority', incl many who never even landed in England, and that the French soldier was still under military discipline. I just wanted to pin down some exact data rather than the oft repeated generalities ! Charlie
Although the broadcast was made on the 18th it took the British Government another 10 days to officially recognise him and his organisation. None of the men evacuated were under his command and to attempt to keep them in the UK would have been tantamount to abetting desertion. You asked what options the soldiers had and the answer is none - exact enough?
What exactly are you asking, just trying to be clear - by repatriation that would mean those who were evacuated but then returned to France - would that be whilst it was still under occupation - after D Day or does D Day become included Maybe repatriation is the wrong word? TD
Sorry, Robert. My response was impolitely abrupt but I got called away. The point is that you have given me only your interpretation of what you have gleaned/researched without giving me any of the references! It is the base information that I am after, not interpretations. But I am not saying that I don't agree with you ! TD- Long before D Day: There were some (?) French servicemen already in UK. There was the Op Dynamo evacuation of some 123,000 French troops 28/5-4/6/40. There were subsequent evacuations -Aerial and Cycle- 5/6-18/6/40 and even after (perhaps 40,000 men). All these men were evacuated to elsewhere in France, to North Africa or to UK. Those that were in UK were repatriated if they wished, to France or North Africa, I believe. All these repatriations in 1940. I have seen a figure of 30,000 quoted for French Troops in UK that CdG tried to encourage to join him after 18/6/40. I would like to get a better handle on these figures to know who went where and when. Charlie
What are your sources for large numbers of French troops evacuated post Dunkirk? Your original question was specifically about French evacuated from Dunkirk but now you've introduces scope creep.
see links in my OP I wish to demonstrate that the figures involved are potentially confusing; I suspect attempts to list repatriations may cross these boundaries ?
Can you be more precise please. I cannot find info relating to post Dunkirk other than the thread on the French Navy. Exactly what figures are you referring too? Your OP title only refers to Dunkirk!
Length is irrelevant - but accuracy is important. You really do need to be predise about what you are asking about before you can complain about imprecise answers
I cannot help with the numbers but the state of affairs in August 1940 may be of interest. Some figures are given in the papers. My late father served as a liaison Officer with the Free French Navy and remembered the strength of the hostility between his shipmates and the Vichy Navy when they eventually "came on board." Anyway, back in 1940 the numerous questions raised by the status of French nationals were discussed by a cabinet sub-committee. A number of files are available to download from Kew for free, the others appear to be £3.50 each, and since I never buy anything online.... The free ones I have found are, conveniently, in 1940: CAB 120/72 Committee on Foreign (Allied) Resistance: representation and terms of reference 1940 Aug 402/28 CAB 95/7 Committee on Foreign (Allied) Resistance (Syria) 1941-1942 Series CFR CAB 85/30 Foreign (Allied) Resistance Sub-Committee on Welfare Security 1940-1941 CAB 85/29 CAB 85. Foreign (Allied) Resistance Sub-Committee on Economic Policy 1941-1942 CAB 85/25/1 Committee on Foreign (Allied) Resistance: Table of Contents. 1941 Jan - 1941 Dec CAB 85/24/1 Committee on Foreign (Allied) Resistance: Table of Contents. 1941 Jan - 1941 Dec CAB 85/23/1 Committee on French Resistance / Committee on Foreign (Allied) Resistance: Table of Contents. 1940 Aug - 1940 Dec CAB 85/22/1 Committee on French Resistance / Committee on Foreign (Allied) Resistance: Table of Contents. 1940 Aug - 1940 Dec The first meeting of the "War Cabinet. Committee of French Resistance. Sub-Committee on Welfare and Security" held on Thursday, 15th August, 1940 is in the first pdf. for file CAB 85/30 and contains the following: " 7. Transfer of French Officers from the Great Central Hotel. Colonel Williams informed the Committee that the French officers and Agents de Liaison now at the Great Central Hotel had all served with British units in France and many were desirous of joining the British Army but that, in view of somewhat tactless handling by General de Gaulle, they were now very much against him. Many of them were well-to-do-men who had many contacts and were putting out the worst possible anti-De Gaulle propaganda in London. He therefore felt that it was most desirable that they should be accommodated somewhere in the country, though as they were in no way anti-British this must be done tactfully and good quarters found for them...etc. "
thank you papiermaché I shall be interested to read some of these files- I have no idea what I will learn! A quick glance at a couple shows interesting reports on French attitudes to CdG and to Britain and seems to highlight significant difficulties when there is a senior French officer amongst a unit. I note that the 'preview' facility is available to see the contents of those files that are payable. It is not easy reading but it certainly lets me decide if it is worthwhile to me to pay. Charlie
Thanks, Charlie. In 1940 the VF held some UK nationals as well, escapees, merchant sailors, civilians, leading to a complicated situation, and some horse trading. I see references to "ransom & hostage" in the documents. In "Their Finest Hour" Winston Churchill reprints a letter from him as PM to the First Lord which reads: " 27.VI.40 1. The French naval personnel at Aintree Camp, numbering 13,600, equally with the 5,530 military at Trentham Park, the 1,000 at Arrow Park, and the details at Blackpool, are to be immediately repatriated to French territory, i.e., Morocco, in French ships now in our hands. 2. They should be told we will take them to French Africa because all French metropolitan ports are in German hands, and that the French Government will arrange for their future movements. 3........." Not sure how pleased they would be with that decision, perhaps to advance the cause of the Free French ? Later in the year there is this note from one of the Kew downloads: CAB85/30 see pdf .2 page 27 Typed page number 85 " Sub-Committee on Welfare and Security ( meeting on 21st November 1940 ) Statement on Repatriation of French Note by Admiral Dickens 1. "Canada" sailed 17th ( Nov.) with ... ... 1,000 "Massilia" sailed 19th ( Nov) with ... 3,200 --------- "Winnipeg" will sail 21st with ... 1,700 "Djenne" will sail 23rd with ... 1,800 --------- 7,700 --------- 2. "Providence", "Oregon", and "Wyoming" have not arrived and there is no news of them. 3. The only seamen not so far embarked are two or three hundred merchant seamen and a few naval ratings. 4. "San Francisco" is awaiting orders. 5. It may be of interest to note that a total of 75 members of the above crews have deserted and joined de Gaulle. (Signed) G.C. Dickens 21st November, 1940 " By the way, my father did not write this book, but an entertaining account of life aboard a Free French submarine written by a Liaison Officer is : "Half Seas Under" by Ruari Mclean. Rather a rare volume these days. Quite a character, by all accounts. Obituary: Ruari McLean Good luck: it's rather a large subject. John
Hostility on both sides ? ie did the Vichy Navy still feel they were in the right or was it a defensive reaction knowing that they were wrong ? Was this hostility felt at all levels of rank ? A 'rather large' subject but a fascinating one. I am trying (strictly amateur) to assist some French friends who are preparing a couple of talks. My original post was to try and pick one event at a time and then to deal with that in more detail. Many French have a different view on Dunkirk (if they have a view) compared to the British. I have seen too many incorrect figures quoted. Of course no event stands in isolation. I am therefore very interested by all that you post. It will just take a while to digest! Thanks Charlie
The dichotomy that seems to underpin the OP did not arise until the Axis-French Armistice came into effect 25/6/40 by which time most army personnel evacuated from France would already have returned. Admiral Dickens' note concerns mostly naval personnel and merchant seamen. By November 1940 most eligible army personnel that wanted to return to France, which I think is Charlie’s interest, had already received passage. Lord Bessborough’s office noted 7/11/40 [CFR (WS)(40)34 CAB 85/23] that approximately 15,000 all ranks including wounded had been returned with only 332 remaining. Most of those remaining had either been too ill to sail with the hospital ships previously or were subsequently torpedoed colonial troops recovering from malaria. They received passage with the hospital ship Canada on the 17th. Noted also were 4,000 returned naval personnel. Whether these Frenchmen had been evacuated from France or Norway, or arrived by other means, would have been of little concern to these Anglo-French committees, so seeking a breakdown may be a fruitless task. Winnipeg, Djenne, Providence, Oregon, Wyoming, and perhaps San Francisco, were the French merchantmen diverted from the U.S. that I mentioned in my other post. These vessels had to be unloaded and cross in ballast to secure safe passage from the Armistice Commission. As bulk carriers, they were also unsuitable to carry large numbers of men, and further delays were incurred fitting them out to do so. With large numbers under canvas and with winter approaching, these delays led to additional arrangements being made and the Vichy armed merchant vessel Massilia from Casablanca and the hospital ship Canada from Toulon were sent to hasten the task.
Thank you for your reply. I have just been reading (not finished yet) Robert Gildea's Fighters in the Shadows and he gives, inter alia,a couple of examples of officers faced with the dilema in June 1940 and the different courses taken. There is discussion of General Bethouart's ex-Narvik force arrived UK, sent across to France evacuated back to UK, repatriated to Vichy France, all in the space of a month- as I understand it. A small number of these soldiers were allowed by their choice to remain in UK. Part of my question was motivated by seeing the CAB 106/270 figures posted by Drew5233 and it says on page 5 Of the 141,445 Allies evacuated during Dynamo and before, 112,107 remained for the time being in England and, as has already been mentioned, 29,338 returned immediately to more southern ports in France. Somebody was keeping a count. As you say, seeking a (complete) breakdown may be a fruitless task but I am sure there are more figures available that I am not aware of. If I don't ask I certainly won't get. The replies from you forum members who have studied this in depth and for a long time are much appreciated. charlie
