I have a question regarding research at the National Archives. I have a reference: ADM 1/16827. Will the 16827 part refer to a single document or a collection of documents? And how do I find out what the name(s) of the document(s) that comprise 16827 are without going to Kew? As always grateful to receive the help and advice of forum members.
It is a file, but there is no way of knowing how large it is, or how drastically it has been thinned without actually looking at it. ADMIRALTY (5); DEFENCES - UNITED KINGDOM (32) and NAVAL STATIONS (50): Re-organisation... | The National Archives
Rich, Thank you for explaining that and the supporting information. Very helpful. Before I posted my question I tried searching NA using the term ADM 1/16827 but it came back with no results. What am I doing wrong. Grateful if you could explain the technique I should be using? Once again-- thank you.
Hi Ulsinus, One thing that has tripped me up is that the search feature in the upper right corner has two modes. If the light grey default text reads "Search our website", you need to change it to "Search our archives".
I always use "Advanced Search" and run down the page to tick the box saying search National Archives only. If you download the search as a spreadsheet you can manipulate the columns in a fresh spreadsheet, most columns can be removed for ease of use and descriptions edited. The column for "Former File Reference" can be very helpful, provided the former file reference has been retyped correctly and consistently. As for the file reference ADM 1/16827: my comment is that the whole file series ADM1 seems particularly jumbled from a distance. Part of the series notes states: "For the periods 1938 to 1945 (ADM 1/9444-19191) and 1946 to 1951 (ADM 1/19192-23058) these documents have been ordered by ADM 12 code in the catalogue, but as a result this has placed them out of piece number sequence. The piece number sequence is based on their former Admiralty Secretariat references year by year and can be discerned from viewing the packing lists in the paper catalogue at Kew. A significant number of strays and late transfers can be found in these sub-series. After 1951 (ADM 1/23059-end), the arrangement by year is resumed and within each year by former Admiralty Secretariat reference. Numerous strays and late transfers are also to be found in this sub-series. Date: 1660-1976 Arrangement: Please note that in this series the references marked on the individual documents may be the original references and not the ADM 1 catalogue item references. Please note that descriptions indicating sequential numbers do not necessarily mean that there will be entries within the document for all numbers. Related material: No index to the contents of these letters was maintained until the development, in 1806-1808, of the Admiralty Index and Digest. These volumes provide subject and nominal indexes to the letters in ADM 1 (and the Board minutes in ADM 3), together with a summary of their contents. The method of using them is explained by a Reference Guide available in the Reference Room. The volumes are in ADM 12 The notes for the whole series are as follows: "Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers Search within or browse this series to find specific records of interest. Keyword search Date range From (yyyy): To (yyyy): " Reference: ADM 1 Title: Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers Description: This series consists in origin of official correspondence directed to the Secretary of the Admiralty for the information of the Lord Admiral or the Lords Commissioners. In time the series developed into a collection of correspondence to, from and within all departments of the Admiralty. Minutes were increasingly noted on the in-letters and from 1869 special minute sheets were added to important letters when they were received. Drafts and after 1869 copies of related out-letters were placed with the in-letters, and with the grouping together of all papers on a given subject the series became composed of files of the modern type. In addition, the nature of the papers in this series changed: the centralised direction of naval affairs from 1832 resulted in the reference to the Admiralty Board, or individual members of it, of all matters involving policy decisions, and thus in the creation of papers in the Secretary's Department. As a result, by the 20th century, most papers that are now in ADM 1 related to internal Admiralty correspondence, memos and papers, and were less likely to be 'driven' by incoming letters to the Admiralty Secretariat. The organisation of ADM 1 differs depending on the period and the series has been split into sub-series to reflect this [ADM 1 on the on-line catalogue is in the process of being re-organised to recognise these divisions]. From circa 1690 to 1839 (ADM 1/1-5494) the series is organised into groups according to the source of the incoming letters. For example, letters from the Commander-in-Chief, Baltic (whatever their subject) are grouped together in pieces 2 to 18; letters from the senior officers of other naval squadrons, stations and yards are similarly grouped. Letters from Captains and Lieutenants have also been placed together, as have letters from other government offices. From 1840 to 1913 (ADM 1/5495-8364) the series is organised first into year groups, and then within each year into broadly the groups used in the pre 1840 arrangements. From 1869 these pieces often include internal papers, minutes and out-letters relating to the in-letter in question. From 1914 to 1934 (ADM 1/8365-8779), the organisation into years continues, but the documents are arranged by an anomalous piece/item numbering scheme. This is explained in the more detail in the arrangement section of this sub-series. From 1935 to 1938 (ADM 1/8780-9443), the item numbering system is no longer used but the organisation by year is retained. From this period onwards increasing numbers of earlier stray or late transfer documents have been included thus disrupting the year-by-year progression of the series established in 1840. In addition, the organisation of records within each year group also shifts towards either the ADM 12 code (or 'cut') indicating the subject of the papers in question, or by alphabetical order of their old Admiralty Secretariat references, that indicate the Admiralty department in which the file was created. For the periods 1938 to 1945 (ADM 1/9444-19191) and 1946 to 1951 (ADM 1/19192-23058) these documents have been ordered by ADM 12 code in the catalogue, but as a result this has placed them out of piece number sequence. The piece number sequence is based on their former Admiralty Secretariat references year by year and can be discerned from viewing the packing lists in the paper catalogue at Kew. A significant number of strays and late transfers can be found in these sub-series. After 1951 (ADM 1/23059-end), the arrangement by year is resumed and within each year by former Admiralty Secretariat reference. Numerous strays and late transfers are also to be found in this sub-series. Date: 1660-1976 Arrangement: Please note that in this series the references marked on the individual documents may be the original references and not the ADM 1 catalogue item references. Please note that descriptions indicating sequential numbers do not necessarily mean that there will be entries within the document for all numbers. Related material: No index to the contents of these letters was maintained until the development, in 1806-1808, of the Admiralty Index and Digest. These volumes provide subject and nominal indexes to the letters in ADM 1 (and the Board minutes in ADM 3), together with a summary of their contents. The method of using them is explained by a Reference Guide available in the Reference Room. The volumes are in ADM 12 Separated material: Cases/files extracted from ADM 1/116, 137, 167 see ADM 156 For pieces previously ADM 1/26692-26703, see ADM 261 Held by: The National Archives, Kew Legal status: Public Record(s) Language: English Creator: Board of Admiralty, 1708-1964 Ministry of Defence, Navy Department, 1964- Physical description: 31116 files and volumes Access conditions: Open unless otherwise stated Accruals: Series is accruing
You've had some proper explanations now.There are some clever blighters here..I still find it to be hard work...not quite up there with the IWM Photo Archive or the Science Museum collections though...it should all be so easy where a file number is known. Google can search the world in seconds...
Ulsinus, I hope I haven't confused you ! Of course, the joy of going through archives is finding things you did not expect to find. I've not been to Kew for 28 months so I'm a bit rusty. This search brings four results, including the file you referred to. Good hunting ! John
Not confused--just grateful John for your help, support and encouragement BTW I share your view re the joy of discovering the unexpected when going through archives. Best wishes Bob
Bob, I found the card index drawers next door to the Invigilation Room in the Reading Room at Kew to be very helpful. There was a card for each RN ship ( not sure which dates were covered ) completed by some kind soul. The card for the corvette my late father served on was very useful, given that the log books for such vessels are not available at Kew. There were notes as to which TNA files contained references to the ship. I hope it is still there. I may have a photo somewhere. Thanks, John
John, once again thank you your continued interest in my query and your tip about the card index. I'll keep an eye open for it should I visit Kew. My current interest concerns the establishment of the Leading Patrolman substantive the rating in December 1944. I'm trying to establish the subjects covered during the six-week training course referred to in AFO 26789/44 --21 Dec 44. Best wishes Bob
Bob, the closest I can get is this file. I searched for "Discipline of the Fleet" in "ADM" without a number. I downloaded the search in HTML and pasted it to plain text. You get the essential bits of several columns of the Kew spreadsheet that way. ADM 1/21730 Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers. SERIES II: 1946-1951 (plus strays 1916-1945, 1952-1956). 1950 Papers. | This file was originally catalogued under more than one subject code. These subject codes and... | This file was originally catalogued under more than one subject code. These subject codes and details of this file are as follows: DISCIPLINE OF THE FLEET (34): Royal Marine and Admiralty Police. DOCKYARDS AND NAVAL ESTABLISHMENTS (41): Royal Marine and Admiralty Police. MARINES (63): Royal Marine and Admiralty Police. | Held by: The National Archives, Kew 01/01/1922 31/12/1950 Former Reference Dep: ADMY210/1950 John
Once again John thank you. Given your advice I feel more confident now that a visit to Kew will be more productive for me. Best wishes Bob
