Royal Armoured Corps/Cavalry Recruitment

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by PriadofDamocles, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. Hi Folks,

    I hope you are all well.

    Hopefully I have posted this query in the right section.

    I was wondering if anyone knew (or knew where to look) how to find out what the recruitment areas were for different cavalry/RAC units prior to (and possibly including) WW2?

    Having scoured the internet I have failed to find any useful info - probably my poor research skills over anything else! Certainly there is a lot of information regarding infantry recruitment areas (especially as the hint is often in the regimental title!) and the Cardwell/Childers reforms of the infantry are well understood, however the same level of information does not appear for the RAC.

    Whilst some unit names are fairly self explanatory (8th Royal Irish Hussars, Scots Grey etc), and the Yeomanry seem to have always had a county affiliation, most line regiments are simply referred to by number.

    Certainly the RAC in its current format has relatively strict recruiting areas (see attachment) although some recruiting areas do overlap. Working back through the various amalgamations can give some idea of original recruiting areas but this seems to be haphazard at best.

    So (in short):

    1) Did regiments within the line cavalry/RAC have set reciting areas?

    2) If so, where can I find information regarding this?

    As ever any help would be greatly appreciated,

    Thanks all,
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Also please read 'reciting' for 'recruitment' - autocorrect has doomed me once again!
     
  3. Knouterer

    Knouterer Member

    To set the context: at the outbreak of WWII, the RAC was a very recent invention. It was created on 4 April 1939, by combining cavalry regiments which had mechanised with the Royal Tank Corps (renamed Royal Tank Regiment).

    At the outbreak of war in 1939 there were 30 Regular cavalry and tank regiments, of which 10 were serving abroad. In the Territorial Army there were 29 Yeomanry regiments, of which 8 were still horsed, and 12 tank battalions.

    The Official Return of the Strength of the British Army as of 30.9.1940 (the period that interests me particulary ...) gives the strength of the Royal Armoured Corps at home as 1,908 officers and 37,669 other ranks, including seven training regiments (51st to 57th) and two OCTUs with a combined strength of about 14,000. The latter number reflects the large number of men drafted into the army in the period immediately after Dunkirk, more than 300,000.
     
  4. Thanks Knouterer for the info.

    Did the RTR/Line cavalry have 'recruitment areas' as such, particularly in the pre-war period?

    I suppose that with the sudden 'lurch' in recruitment the idea of strict recruitment areas probably went out of the window. Presumably, units must have had an area to recruit from in the pre-war period, or were they simply assigned to a unit from their training regiment?
     
  5. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Yeomanry units were county-based so at the outset of the war they drew recruits from their home counties. Whatever the original recruiting arrangements may have been, the demands of war (casualties, reorganizations, changes of unit roles) obliged the British Army to make radical changes. Units formed post-Dunkirk drew recruits from a wide variety of sources. The 24th Lancers started life with draft cadres from the existing 9th Lancers and 17th/21st Lancers and a large number of conscripts from London.
     
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    It might depend a bit perhaps on whether you mean troopers or officers?

    My grandfather originally (1928) joined up in Cardiff, whilst he lived in Caerphilly, but was born in Bridport. He wanted to join the RTC so actually went purposefully to Cardiff I think.

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29588]

    His army number: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/4837-army-number-block-allocations/

    Belongs to the block allocated to Royal Tank Corps/Regiment 7868001 - 7891868

    From Caerphilly/Cardiff he was sent to Bovington. He said in notes written in later life that at the end of his initial training he was asked where he wanted to be posted to next and had to make a selection in descending order (I think) of where he would go to next and seems to have got his first choice. His decisions in this seemed to have been mostly geographical.


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29455]


    Eventually (1939) he went to the 9th Lancers (whilst a lot of his friends seemed to have gone to the Bays). : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Queen%27s_Royal_Lancers#Training

    It didn't make "much difference" at first though as "the 2nd Armoured Brigade at Tidworth. The 2nd Armoured Brigade was made up of the 9th Queen's Royal Lancers, Queen's Bays and 10th Hussars and remained unchanged throughout the war."

    There was a relative, an uncle (I think) that may have been in the 9th Lancers (though not sure) so there might have been some connection/choice or else he was just sent where he was needed most at the time.

    Then as in the post above #5 - after France briefly he went to the 24th L - "The 24th Lancers started life with draft cadres from the existing 9th Lancers and 17th/21st Lancers and a large number of conscripts from London."

    Thence from the 24th L (on their disbandment) he went to the SRY (again - he says through "choice").

    Interestingly having read (and listened to some IWM audio) - for officers the Regiment they "joined" often seemed to be based on geography/family/tradition etc.

    CWGC and gravestones deals with which regiment officers (who during often long careers often moved about a lot) were in, in sometimes interesting ways - and where original records end up because of amalgamations / regimental disbandments etc. can often be interesting too.
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Priado

    I read your opening article with some amusement as I recalled my own entry into the 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

    When I was first called up in October 1842 I expressed an interest in joining a tank unit but was promptly told that my small height of 5ft 5" precluded my entry because I would have difficulty in operating the tank foot pedals.

    I accepted their ruling and finished up as a Wireless Operator in Light Ack Ack.

    In December 1944 and whilst having served in North Africa, Sicily & Italy my unit was disbanded and I found mysel transferred into the RAC and was to find that I had no problems in driving Sherman tanks !

    Ron
     
  8. TTH - Thank you very much for the info; i'm not surprised that post Dunkirk everything went out the window!

    Ramiles - Thank you for sharing your grandfather's career; he certainly seems to have got around! It's interesting how he was able to make his choice of units - it's not what I would have expected. It must have been interesting moving from a regiment with one set of traditions, to forming a brand new unit formed jointly with another lancer regiment, to final moving to a yeomanry unit (albeit a very experienced one). I wonder if he missed his old 9th Lancers?

    I wonder then if the idea of set recruiting areas for the RAC is a relatively recent phenomenon?
     
  9. Ron - thank you very much for your reply.

    What a fascinating career you had - quite a change of scenery moving from the RA to the 4th Hussars though! Did you find there was much of a change in culture? How did you feel about the disbandment and your transfer?

    I think this thread certainly proves that whatever was in place prior to the war certainly changed dramatically as the need arose.
     
  10. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  11. I imagine that must have helped 'concentrate' the mind!

    Thanks for sharing your story Ron,

    All the best
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There's a quote in "None Had Lances (the story of the 24th Lancers)" on p194 that "Every effort was made to post chaps to the unit of their choice" and "Where practicable complete tank crews and complete troops were transferred en bloc so that men who had trained and fought together and knew how to rely on each other's skills, and support each other's weaknesses, were able to continue the struggle against Nazi tyranny together." - however it does say above that, that "No place could be found immediately for nearly half the Regiment and they went to holding units or were sent back to the UK."

    There is a great deal of text in "An Englishman At War" - re. the SRY ethos: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EFfOAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT289&lpg=PT289&dq=An+Englishman+at+War+Yeomanry+Regiment&source=bl&ots=AV3dBRYHPU&sig=A6x_gsdRdYUWzRexsd_v5JntDY4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1qfun7_TLAhVFJA8KHVPlCboQ6AEIRTAH#v=onepage&q=Yeomanry%20unit&f=false

    And in a book called "Dad's War - Andy & John Cropper" there's some discussion of what his father felt like going from the 24th L to the SRY: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/Dads-Cropper-Andy-John-Anmas-Publications/16963976918/bd

    Gd wrote this just after the transfer, he had actually hoped to be accepted as an officer in the RASC, and indeed the application had gone in before the announcement that the 24th L were to be disbanded, but sadly this was not to be:

    7880500 Sgt.B.Symes
    Sherwood Rangers
    265 FDS.
    B.L.A.
    August 1st 1944

    Dearest Phyl and Rob,
    There is a nice big address for you. I’m not allowed to explain even yet why the change. As you probably know Regiments go in threes, The Sherwoods are sister Reg. to the 24th. I have all my boys with me, so it’s just a change of name at the moment. The application for a commission in the R.A.S.C. has probably gone into the waste paper basket by now, although I had a very good write up from the Sqn, “I can’t see them allowing first class tank commanders to beetle off” says the intelligence officer…

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29463]

    …seven of us applied I suspect we’ve left it just a few years too late. Well, to continue with my story after I pulled Spud out we were sent off to keep an eye on a village, five Boche came out with their hands up and then dived into a hedge. I took my crate to look for them and hit a mine. We were all O.K., it only blew the track off. We were pulled off it and I was busy patching it up when we were told to scram. That was the end of that crate. We kept with the squadron in a truck until next day when Spud had a lump taken of his arm by a piece of shrapnel. I held his hand while it was being dressed and then saw him off to England. Later in the evening when we thought the day’s work was done….

    …Eric came in with a broken leg. I didn’t see him. Next day we came back to the FDS (Forward Delivery Squadron) for another crate. After that more stuff was getting off at the beaches so we were eased off. Those first few days were a bit hectic, there wasn’t much stuff around and this country is thick with trees and high hedges, there could be a hidden Boche in every hedge and you just couldn’t spot them. We didn’t rely much on the French, they are only farmers and haven’t done too badly.
    One other little thing Sgt. Cooper was sat in a hedge late one evening when a Tiger tank came up, he didn’t know what it was until it was twenty five yards away, Cooper is quite bold, so was the…

    …Boche and they sat there looking at each other for a moment. Cooper was quickest to the draw and got the Tiger.
    The weather out here was lovely yesterday but today it’s misty and doesn’t look like clearing.
    I don’t know how your mail will come now it may be okay as they know where we are.
    If you haven’t yet written to Spud you might give him my new address.
    Well darling they seem to be chasing him now, I do hope for everyone’s sake that they’ll chuck it, if they don’t know now that they’re beaten then they must be mad.
    All my love to you both from your loving husband, Ben.

    Re. "I wonder if he missed his old 9th Lancers" I think he did, and he kept his badges, perhaps even on the off chance that at some future point he might even need them again ;)

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28003]

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  13. HI Ramiles,

    Thank you for sharing your grandad's letter - what a fantastic thing to have - a real insight into your grandad's past.

    Thank you also for the book suggestions - I actually have 'An Englishman at War' (next on my reading list ones I've finished Beevor's 'Ardennes') so I will look forward to reading more about this unit. My initial interest in the subject came from researching the Staffordshire Yeomanry who were brigade with the SRY in Palestine and the Western Desert - amazing how things can come round full circle!

    Before your message I knew very little about the the 24L other than they had been disbanded in Normandy; it sounds like your gfs transfer to the SRY bucked the normal trend as according to wikipedia (that ever reliable source!) many men from the 24L went to the 23rd Hussars - another regiment raised during the war.

    A pity your gf didn't get his step into the RASC - then again I suppose 'Once a lancer, always a lancer' if his 9th Lancer badeges are anything to go by!
     
  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. "Before your message I knew very little about the the 24L other than they had been disbanded in Normandy; it sounds like your gfs transfer to the SRY bucked the normal trend as according to wikipedia (that ever reliable source!) many men from the 24L went to the 23rd Hussars - another regiment raised during the war."

    The wiki page at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24th_Lancers
    Occasionally gets an update - (last one 20th Jan 2016 at the mo) it currently says "Most of these men went to the 23rd Hussars or other units of the 8th Armoured Brigade, or the 29th Armoured Brigade in the 11th Armoured Division.[1]"

    And refs: https://web.archive.org/web/20080118043310/http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D24.htm

    Which "has": :eek:

    1944.07.24

    disbanded for lack of reinforcements (personnel to 23rd Hussars)





    As well as:

    RHQ and Depot:





    Home HQ: [none]





    Depot: [​IMG]





    Recruiting Area: nationwide

    Not sure re. the current state of the "Staffordshire Yeomanry wiki" and what other Staff mentioning sites (to discuss/flag up) there are - but maybe a dedicated thread here might be worthwhile to find/compile etc? : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Yeomanry

    Finding a post war equivalent Reg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Yeomanry#Post_war
    With regimental museum / archivists etc. can be a boon, plus there is also the tank museum at Bovington plus the IWM.

    Not sure if you have considered yet getting his "tracer card"?

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  15. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Priad and Ramiles

    A quick word about Wikipedia if I may. As always beware of that place which can be full of good-intentioned but nevertheless self-righteous 'non-specialist specialists' as well as more decent folk. Sounds a paradox but it isn't. I edited the 24L Wikipedia entry some time ago to make it more accurate and especially that bit about them all going to 23H. My entry was promptly reversed by a self-righteous type on the basis that I didn't provide a validatable reference. When I said I didn't need to because I knew the facts from multiple sources including discussions with 'those who were there', access to the Disbandment List and in my historic capacity as Hon Sec of the 24L Old Comrades Association, I was politely told words to the effect of 'that doesn't count, go away'! Its worth pointing out that 23H were part of 29AB anyway.......

    Steve

    Edit: I've just revisited the Wikipedia page. Totally wrong about the 24L landing date on Gold Beach. Lots landed on D-Day the 6th June and landing was completed on the 7th June. That's what happens when people blindly quote inaccurate accounts! They also never fought anywhere near Villers Bocage.....as the only surviving part of my own edit states, they were in the Tilly/Fontenay/Tessel/Rauray area.
     
  16. AG HART

    AG HART Member

    The Royal Armoured Corps did not have recruiting area's until the early 1960's. Recruiting area's were only allocated when conscription ended and the British Army became a volunteer army again. Prior to the creation of the RAC I'm not aware of Regular Cavalry Regiments or Tank Corps battalions having specific recruiting area's. It is highly likely that they were all UK wide recruiters.
     

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