Royal Armoured Corps Insignia, as opposed to that of a constituent regiment?

All,

I have been doing some research on the RAC and have been able to glean that it was composed of constituent cavalry regiments. The exact relationships between regiments and corps is unclear.

What I am confused about is the relationship between these regiments an the RAC, and the uniforms that members of the RAC wore.

My Uncle served in the RAC - I have a photo of him in BD with the black beret and mailed fist cap-badge and RAC shoulder flashes. Yet I'm told he enlisted in the 9th Lancers, so I'm confused as to why he would be wearing Corps as opposed to Regimental insignia.

I've sent off for his service records but am still waiting for them.

If anyone who can shed any light on this conundrum it would be greatly appreciated.

 

If I understand it correctly new recruits had wear RAC cap badge while there were on the training. Once they were sent to the regiment they would wear cap badge of that regiment.

 

Tabbers -
Sol is right - in the training regiments we wore the mailed fist and arrows badge of the RAC - but on posting to the 145th RAC - which was a conversion from 8th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons -we retained the RAC badge - on later transfer to 16/5th Lancers - we wore the 16 and crossed lances of the 16th Lancers cap badge- however in recognition of the amalgamated 5th Irish Lancers we would wear the "Queen's Badge" on our blazers which recognises both 16th and 5th Irish Lancers......since 1993 however we were amalgamated with the 17/21st lancers and now wear their skull and crossbones cap badge and are titled - "The Queens Royal Lancers "
- The 9th Lancers are now amalgamated with the 12th Lancers and now the 9/12th Lancers

To-day of course from being first class fighting regiments within 6th Armoured division in North Africa and Italy in WW2 - we are now a recce regiment at everyone's beck and call.....
Cheers

 

Gents, thanks (I nearly typed "tanks" there!) very much for your replies. I'll question my dad (my Uncle died in the '80s) further on what he remembers and when the records turn up it should settle the issue once and for all.

 

Tabbers -
Sol is right - in the training regiments we wore the mailed fist and arrows badge of the RAC - but on posting to the 145th RAC - which was a conversion from 8th Battalion Duke of Wellingtons -we retained the RAC badge - on later transfer to 16/5th Lancers - we wore the 16 and crossed lances of the 16th Lancers cap badge- however in recognition of the amalgamated 5th Irish Lancers we would wear the "Queen's Badge" on our blazers which recognises both 16th and 5th Irish Lancers......since 1993 however we were amalgamated with the 17/21st lancers and now wear their skull and crossbones cap badge and are titled - "The Queens Royal Lancers "
- The 9th Lancers are now amalgamated with the 12th Lancers and now the 9/12th Lancers

To-day of course from being first class fighting regiments within 6th Armoured division in North Africa and Italy in WW2 - we are now a recce regiment at everyone's beck and call.....
Cheers

Tom - if I understand you correctly, its possible that if 9th Lancers was renumbered as a RAC regiment he would have continued to wear the RAC insignia throughout the war? From what I recall my dad saying, my Uncle completed training in 1943 but went to hospital, then wasn't sent overseas when he came out but remained in the UK (at Bovingdon I think).

 

Tabbers - essentialy you are correct as any unit re numbered as an RAC regiment wore the RAC mailed fist and arrows cap badge - many units were conveted from infantry - yeomanry and numbered accordingly as 107 - 141 - 142 - 143 - 144 - 145 RAC etc Bovington in those days had a training regiment attached - forgotten the number but in Barnard Castle there were three training units of 54th -59th -61st in my days.

The Cavalry units of course really objected to have their smelly horses replaced by equally smelly and greasy Tanks and fought the changeover ordered in 1922 so much - plus the financial restraints - that the 16/5th left their horses in Egypt on their way home form India in 1940 to be outfitted with Valentine and Matalida Tanks with 2 pdr guns for landing in North Africa in 1942 - which some wags held that they were as effective as their horses and Lances would have been against the Panzers.

Independent lot were the Cavalry types - 16/5th were banished to India for 24 years
for siding with the Queen against the King of the day by insisting on wearing a Scarlet tunic as opposed to the regular Blue tunics - further was the fact that the 16/5th put the higher number first - and all the rest are numbered like 9/12th - 18/20th etc
Cheers

 

As an ex Light Ack Ack man who was re-trained at an RAC unit in Italy I got to wear both badges.

Initially the RAC Mailed Fist and then the 4th QOH one.

Ron

 

Tabbers
what your uncles service records will show - in all probability - is that when he was called up initially he would have spent six weeks in the General Service Corps with a number of 144***** - complete with their cap badge - then qualified for Tank Instruction with a training regt - quite possibly with Bovingtons unit - wearing the RAC cap badge and shoulder-tabs - but as he went into hospital - before or after posting to 9th lancers - as X(iv) or so as being sick - then possibly X(Viii) - re graded from A1 - then posted to Bovington in an admin or training role which precluded his overseas service.... so be sure to post his records when they are received
Cheers

 

Tabbers
what your uncles service records will show - in all probability - is that when he was called up initially he would have spent six weeks in the General Service Corps with a number of 144***** - complete with their cap badge - then qualified for Tank Instruction with a training regt - quite possibly with Bovingtons unit - wearing the RAC cap badge and shoulder-tabs - but as he went into hospital - before or after posting to 9th lancers - as X(iv) or so as being sick - then possibly X(Viii) - re graded from A1 - then posted to Bovington in an admin or training role which precluded his overseas service.... so be sure to post his records when they are received
Cheers

Tom, all - thanks again for the responses. I spoke briefly to my father last night and he remembers my Uncle wearing RAC uniform for all his 3 year's service. When the records finally arrive (requested last October!) I'll put them up.

 

Hello Everyone, this is my first post on this forum.

I have just spent a frustrating few hours trying to unravel my father's battledress tunic insignia, and then I spotted that Tom Canning was also in 145 Regiment.

My father joined 145 Regt in March 1940 (still 8th Battalion, The Duke of Wellington's then), and served with it as a Churchill Tank Commander until it disbanded in Italy in January 1945. He was subsequently posted to join The Queen's Bays 2nd Dragoon Guards, also in Italy, on Sherman tanks.

His surviving battledress tunic has a red lanyard from the left chest pocket to the left shoulder, and he said that only 'his' regiment was allowed to wear this lanyard. His tunic is apparently the last one he wore, before being demobbed in 1946, judging be the full set of medal ribbons. Therefore I had assumed that the red lanyard signified The Queen's Bays.

However, on just studying five surviving group photos, it is apparent that all are wearing lanyards on the December 1944 view, and also in an apparently earlier photo, taken with a Scottish (?) background, possibly at Langholm in 1942-3.

So my question is, was the red lanyard peculiar to 145 Regiment, but if so, why would he still be wearing it in 1946?

Thanks for any clarification that can be given!

P.S. I also appear to have a 'full set' of metal badges - the mailed fist - The Bays - and the one with the WWI tank.

 

Acklington welcome to the forum

please post any photos you have.Forum members will be most interested


regards
Clive

 

Acklington
You are perfectly right that I also served with 145th RAC ( ex DoW 8th batt) - however I have absolutly NO recall of ever seing a RED lanyard - antwhere - and as regards to Langholm - again perfectly right at that move from Cumnock - Ayrshire to Langholm Dumfrieshire- happened on 1st June 1942 which strted a whole series of exercises with the wholebrigade prior to embarking for North Africa in March '43 where I joined them in "A" squadron - andbeingknocked out at the Gothic line- coming back to join 16/5th lancers in 6th Armoured Div - so what was his name - I might know of him- fthe WW1 Tank badge is NOT the Bay but RTR and they were in 1stArmoured Div which was broken up also in Northern Italy....
Cheers

 

Hello Tom, I'm delighted to have found someone from my father's regiment.

The first photo is the one that was taken in Scotland, at Langholm Lodge, prior to the Regiment embarking for North Africa. It certainly doesn't look like North Africa, or even Italy. My father also still looks fairly young. He was in B Squadron, 145 Regiment.


This second view is an enlargement with my father, Sergeant Eric Pain, second from top, lefthand side. Note that the three in the top row all appear to have lanyards, as do many of the others in the whole photo. The berret badges are mainly 'mailed fists', although the man with the glasses has a different badge.


This is the actual tunic that I have, inherited from my father. The forage cap doen't match, but it was found in my former family home. I added the 'West Riding' badge, which was also in my father's possessions.




And finally here is a photo of my father (centre) wearing (I believe) the actual tunic. The photo appears to have been taken in Italy, perhaps in late 1945, or early 1946. By which time he could have been in The Queen's Bays. The other two NCOs have shoulder patches. Dad finished his service as a "W/SQMS".




I hope that you, or other forum members, can help to unravel this 'red lanyard' business. I am starting to wonder if he kept the lanyard from earlier in his service, and then subsequently added it to his final tunic?

Many thanks.

 

Acklington

This is all very weird - now think about it - in MOST squadrons - we had ONE SSM - ONE SQMS - FIVE troop sergeants-

what do we have in this first picture - EIGHT SSM's - TWO RSM's - one with an RAOC badge and specs.....many with RED Lanyards- only TWO Officers - MOST squadrons had NINE.....

I am thinking 59th RAC Training regiment of Barnard Castle - who wore a RED lanyard - as it doesn't look a bit like "B" squadron 145th RAC......looks more like a mix of ex Infantry being trained on Tanks......face it this was 1940/41....

All training regiments had the RAC cap badge - all had lanyards - 54th had Lime - 61st had yellow etc.....to differentiate the regiments in Barnard Castle..at least in my time 42/43.....but the plethora of Sgts and SSM's stuns me as it is not real even in the whole Regiment.

The Regiment came from the Infantry and had to be taught about Tanks - so the Sgts etc had to be first taught - so courses at a training regiment had to organised and the nearest to Ayrshire / Dumphrieshire would be Barnard Castle .....this would also explain the RAOC member - before REME which came about in '42.

Make sense...?
Cheers

 

It might help to see an "average" Tank Squadron photo.

This was taken shortly in Ferndorf in Austria shortly after the war's end in Europe.

Ron

 

The front rank (seated) appear to have crowns surmounted by laurels, is that a Squadron rank/appointment or Quartermaster Sergeants? I assume with the amount of kit there would have been TQ (Technical Quartermaster and TQ Sergeants) as well as Q.

 

Owen -
Knew it was one of them - has to be 1942 then ?

Wills -
A Tank Squadron - as such - had only one sgt and two fitters from the REME - plus one signals chap - this constituted the LAD- LIGHT AID DETACHMENT ...

Ron's photo of a real squadron shows a typical ARMOURED squadron - with TEN Officers - ONE SSM - ONE SQMS- seven Sgts - seven corporals as they had an extra tank to a troop of a TANK squadron -sixteen Tanks to fifteen...

The Acklington photo is therefore a group training outfit with so many Sgts and only two Officers as I had posted as the Officers are invaribaly trained elsewhere in "cadres" as the unit Diary claims - how the others were trained in not important - apparently.

The 145th RAC was formed in November 1941 and thus most of 1942 would have been spent in training and exercises before heading towards North Africa in March 1943 - and disbanded in December 1944 - after the Gothic Line battles.
Cheers

 

Tom - I wondered like you if this was a course. So many Q blokes (SQMS) and Sergeants.

 

Tom, mank thanks for your reply regarding the 59th RAC Training Regiment at Barnard Castle. We lived in Newcastle upon Tyne, and occasionally drove through nearby Barnard Castle. You have now reminded me that Dad had said that he was stationed there.

However, I have been all through his Army papers, again, and there is no mention anywhere of the 59th RAC TR, or of Barnard Castle. Dad's service record consists only of 146 Regt (8th Duke of Wellington's on enlistment in March 1940), and The Queen's Bays after 145 was disbanded in January 1945.

On enlistment his trade is recorded as a "Lecturer in Vehicle Mechanics", so it is likely that he was made an Instructor. Perhaps the 59th was a 'secondment', and officially he still 'belonged' to 145 regt.?

Anyway, now for the rest of his photos. They are not in chronological order, and only one is dated.

Which is this one which is captioned "Regimental Sgts Group, Dec 1944" i.e, shortly before 145 Regt was disbanded in Italy.

And here is a close-up with Dad sat lower left. Note lanyards in abundance! And the berret badges appear to be 'mailed fists'.


More photos to follow, as my previous attempt to load all the photos at once appears to have been 'timed out' by the forum?