Royal Artillery observers attached to aircrews

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Pieter F, Feb 1, 2011.

  1. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    At Vriezenveen (province of Overijssel) are six men buried. All died on 26 March 1942. Five of them are airmen, the sixth is from the Royal Artillery.

    The six men are:
    Sergeant Walter I. Christsen RAAF
    Sergeant Eric W.C. Creed RAAF
    Sergeant William W.R. Norton RAAF
    Sergeant Albert F.M. Emms RAF (214 Sqd)
    Sergeant John R. Payne RAF (214 Sqd)
    Captain Alfred P. Mair RA (attd RAF)

    I have checked LostBombers, but I could not find a 214 Squadron crash for 26 March 1942. So what happened to this aircraft? And why was there a RA Captain attached to the crew?
     
  2. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    This was their mission Pieter.

    No. 214 (FMS) Squadron RAF - Squadron Personnel - M

    Scroll down the left side until you find A P Mair, the click crew and losses where his details are will tell you the loss details.

    Mystery about the RA Capt. Thought maybe a AOP guy, but would not make any sense on that type of aircraft.

    Cheers - Rob
     
  3. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    Pieter

    Follow the link below and select 'Search now - as guest', search using 'Norton 400885' and then select the digitised items in the results.

    RecordSearch - National Archives of Australia

    According to the file (page 29) the RA officer was attached to the crew to observe the enemy Anti-aircraft fire.
     
    Pieter F likes this.
  4. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Thanks for the info guys!

    Were there very often RA officers attached to aircrews for observations? Were these observations made for the intelligence officers at the briefings?
     
  5. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    A bit more info here, under the heading 'I found Harry.'

    RAF Bassingbourn : RAF Operations 1938-1942

    On board was my uncle, Captain Harold Butterworth, a 20 year old from Inverness Scotland. A Royal Artillery regiment officer he was now attached to the R.A.F. as a rear air turret gunner and observer. Intelligence had predicted clear weather over the whole bombing run and as with the 3 previous night sorties that week the planes of his 214 Squadron should return in the early hours of the next morning.
    He was rear turret gunner and as a Royal Artillery officer he was also in a good position to asses what ground-fire was in action.
     
    Buteman likes this.
  6. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Well, I haven't heard of it before, an RA officer as an Air Gunner.
     
  7. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Me neither.
     
  8. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    It would be interesting to know on which scale RA officers were attached to RAF crews and where their observations were used for exactly.
     
  9. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    I have to admit it's the first I've heard of it too.

    I've just found another piece which claims there were 16 volunteers for the role in 1942. I am yet to find exactly how the collected the intelligence.

    It soon emerged that he possessed an expertise in Anti-Aircraft fire. In 1942, he was one of 16 officers who volunteered to fly as air-gunners in Bomber crews over Germany, to study German Anti-Aircraft defences first-hand.
    Ralph Alexander Maltby | ParaData
     
  10. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Valuable info Nick! Thanks for posting.
     
  11. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    I wonder whether there would be anything in the 214 Sqn ORB at the TNA.
     
  12. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Not a great deal more to add however I have a few of these who are buried in Germany. I could not find out whether they participated or only observed.

    Source:
    AWM237 (65) Micro Film No 463 OAFH Commonwealth War Graves records
    W R Chorley : RAF Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War :Page 53,
    Volume 1942..
    Aircraft Type: Wellington
    Serial number: Z 1143
    Radio call sign: BU -
    Unit: ATTD 214 SQN RAF
    Summary:
    Wellington Z1143 took off from RAF Stradishall on the night of 26/27th March 1942,
    detailed to bomb Essen, Germany. Nothing was heard from the aircraft after take off and
    it failed to return to base.
    Crew:
    RAAF 400581 PO Creed, E W C Captain (Pilot)
    RAAF 400885 Sgt W W R Norton, (Pilot)
    RAAF 404277 Sgt W I Christsen, (Observer)
    RAF Sgt A F M Emms, (Wireless Air Gunner)
    RAF Sgt J R Payne, (Wireless Air Gunner)
    ARMY Capt Mair A P (Royal Artillery attached to 214 Sqn)
    The aircraft was shot down by a night fighter and crashed at 2225 hours at Vriezenveen
    (Overjissel) on the east side of the Overjissel Canal and some 9kms NNW of Almelo,
    Holland..
    All on board were killed and they are buried in the Vriezenveen General Cemetery,
    Netherlands. Vriezaenveen is a small town 9kms north of Almelo and 1.5kms east of the
    Overjissel Canal.
     
  13. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    CWGC :: Casualty Details

    Name: TINGLE, HOWARD GRANTLEY
    Initials: H G
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Captain
    Regiment/Service: Royal Artillery
    Age: 39
    Date of Death: 02/04/1942
    Service No: 88507
    Awards: M C
    Additional information: Son of Eustace Martin Tingle and Ada Sarah Tingle; husband of Margot Tingle.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: 2. B. 18.
    Cemetery: DURNBACH WAR CEMETERY

    214 Sqn Wellington IC BU- Op: Hanau

    P/O J H A Baker +
    Sgt D A S Hamilton RNZAF +
    F/S A R Vint +
    F/S T Flanagan +
    F/S R A J Trevillian +
    Capt H G Tingle MC, RA +

    T/o Stradishall. Crashed at Bad Siedlung, near Russelsheim, where the crew were first buried. Since the war, their remains have been exhumed and taken to Durnbach War Cemetery.

    BCL 1942 Vol 3 W R Chorley
     
  14. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

    Whilst looking for the MC citation for Captain Tingle I came across the following on the LG site.

    Viewing Page 3021 of Issue 35624

    It lists another nine RA officers that received awards for 'gallant and distinguished services on air operations while attached to the Royal Air Force'.
     
  15. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Fascinating information coming to light in this thread.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  16. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Thanks Tom. I will try to edit the title of this thread, as it doesn't cover the real subject anymore.
     
  17. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Lancaster ED662 (9 Squadron)

    6 - 7 april 1943
    Operation: Training

    P/O J.F.Leleu KIA
    Sgt A.E.Ingram KIA
    Sgt A.J.McCoy KIA
    Sgt F.Worrall KIA
    Sgt G.B.Walker KIA
    Sgt A.H.Page KIA
    Sgt H.Wells KIA
    Lt G.P.Johnson RA KIA

    ED662 crashed 0330hrs 7Apr43, during the course of a Bullseye exercise, hitting the ground at Kennyhill, 1 mile N of Mildenhall Airfield, Suffolk. The accident was attributed to a total engine failure. Lt.Johnson RA had been attached from 105 Heavy ant- aircraft Regiment, Royal Artillery.

    Source: Lost Bombers

    The Scottish War Memorials Project :: View topic - Searching for the man whose forename I was given.: This thread contains some info and a picture of Sergeant Gordon B. Walker.
     
  18. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Name: JOHNSON, GEORGE PHILIP
    Initials: G P
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Lieutenant
    Regiment/Service: Royal Artillery
    Unit Text: 105 H.A.A. Regt.
    Secondary Regiment: Royal Air Force
    Secondary Unit Text: attd. 9 Sqdn.
    Age: 29
    Date of Death: 07/04/1943
    Service No: 228198
    Additional information: Son of Samuel Johnson, M.C. and Mary Elizabeth Johnson, of Finchley, husband of Nancy Johnson, of Finchley.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. S5. Grave 65.
    Cemetery: EAST FINCHLEY CEMETERY AND ST. MARYLEBONE CREMATORIUM

    Pilot Officer Leleu and Sergeant McCoy are buried at Beck Row (St. John) Churchyard.
    Sergeant Ingram is buried at Bilton (St. Peter) Churchyard.
    Sergeant Worrall is buried at Barnsley Cemetery.
    Sergeant Wells is buried at Cardiff (Cathays) Cemetery.
    Sergeant Walker is buried at Mearns Cemetery.
    Sergeant Page is buried at Stockton-on-Tees (Oxbridge Lane) Cemetery.
     
  19. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    I have to admit it's the first I've heard of it too.

    I've just found another piece which claims there were 16 volunteers for the role in 1942. I am yet to find exactly how the collected the intelligence.

    Ralph Alexander Maltby | ParaData

    [​IMG]

    Lieutenant Maltby's headstone at the Arnhem-Oosterbeek War Cemetery. Source: Sanguinicus set at Flickr.
     
  20. nicks

    nicks Very Senior Member

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