Royal Corps of signals: Berets etc, any pics please?

Discussion in 'Royal Signals' started by IrishSoldier, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. IrishSoldier

    IrishSoldier Member

    Hi Folks, my grandfather was a driver with the Royal Corps of Signals during WW2 and as a reenactor I would like to depict his regiment next year... I have some pics of him with the old side cap and one with a floppy old general service beret, would he have worn the smaller navy blue beret or any other headgear? I just want to make sure I am accurate... I have already asked Andy on here and he suggested some of you chaps might know...
    may thanks
    Dave
     
  2. James Daly

    James Daly Senior Member

    I've had a quick flick through Brian L Davis, British Army Uniforms which is normally pretty accurate on these things. Well worth a look if you want to check up on the accuracy of uniforms.

    I think you're right in that the most common headgear worn would have been either the beret or the Field Service Cap. There was the Service Dress Cap, but this wasn't commonly worn by other ranks during wartime for economy reasons, it depends if he was an officer and/or a regular soldier or hostilities only.

    The Field Service cap was made from barathea for officers and khaki serge for other ranks. It was worn one size larger than other headgear to ensure a good fit.

    The Royal Signals Beret colour was dark blue, unless he was serving with a unit that had their own beret colour, ie Airborne Signals would have been maroon.
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I would email the RCS Museum to confirm as they have lots of WW2 stuff in there - Better still pay a visit to them.

    The cap badge changed in 1947 and again in 52 or 53 when the Queen took to the throne after the King died (They changed the crown-I wonder if they have already started making new regimental cap badges yet?). I see no reason wny the Navy Blue beret would be anything but that.

    Good luck and don't forget the pictures :)
    Andy
     
  4. berjay

    berjay WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi Folks, my grandfather was a driver with the Royal Corps of Signals during WW2 and as a reenactor I would like to depict his regiment next year... I have some pics of him with the old side cap and one with a floppy old general service beret, would he have worn the smaller navy blue beret or any other headgear? I just want to make sure I am accurate... I have already asked Andy on here and he suggested some of you chaps might know...
    may thanks
    Dave
    Hi There, I was with the Royal Signals from 1943 to 1947 , Some of tghat time spent attatched to the 8th Armoured Brigade, whilst with them I was "allowed" to wear their Black beret. So if its any use to you probably he was also "allowed" to wear its head-gear!!
     
  5. IrishSoldier

    IrishSoldier Member

    Nice to hear from another old Signals man Berjay, my grandfathers name was John Smyth and he was from Sligo in Eire... I still havent got his full service record, but i know he served in North Africa, Sicily, France & Germany... he finished up with 15th Air Formation Signals at the end of the war... I believe he was attached to other outfits along the way, 8th army for sure as he told me himself before he died...possibly the Irish Brigade in Italy... do you know if Royal Signals ever wore the smaller dark blue beret during WW2 or did this appear post war?
    kind regards
    Dave
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    A bit of searching on the net suggests that the RTR was the first to wear Black berets before WW2 (Apparently to hide oil stains) and was then adopted by more regiments during WW2. In 1943 it was decided that all regiments/units that were not already wearing berets would be issued with them and service caps etc would be disbanded. Apparently the powers that be thought the service caps looked ugly as they were often worn on the back of the head or pushed one of the wearers ears out.

    On Digger History it says that after WW2 the Navy Blue beret was introduced to all units and the RTR expressed their right to go back/continue wearing the Black Beret as tradition as I'm sure airborne formation would for the maroon beret etc.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  7. James Daly

    James Daly Senior Member

    I also believe that the RTR adopted the Beret interwar as it was the most practical style of headgear for wearing in tanks, after observing French armoured units wearing them.

    Kind of similar to the famous story of how Monty started wearing one in the desert, after he found it more practical than a Digger hat - apparently it kept blowing off in the wind!
     
  8. IrishSoldier

    IrishSoldier Member

    Having done my bit of research, it would appear the standard headwear for a driver in the Royal Corps of Signals during the war was either the old side "chip shop" cap and later the horrible GS beret made from the same material as battle dress, however some soldiers enhanced theirs by placing a rather smart dark blue backing behind their cap badge... I have only a couple of pics of my grandfather in uniform and they are not great quality, but his battledress appears to have the Royal Corps shoulder titles and the little blue/white strip, there is another patch in between but it is too hard to make anything of...so I should be able to re-enact a Signals driver for next season witout too much difficulty...
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    My Dad was R.Sigs (originally 11 Air Fmn Signals) from 1943 - 47. He was wearing an FS cap in a photo from early 1944 but thereafter always the GS cap (worn on the back of the head as Drew points out !)

    I've never heard mention of a beret.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  11. IrishSoldier

    IrishSoldier Member

    Am I confusing things by referring to the General Service hat as a beret? I've always heard them called a GS Beret, they certainly have the general shape of a beret even though its a much more baggy and shapeless piece of kit than a normal beret... in any case, call it whatever but its the big cow pat shaped one I am talking about...
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    A Signaller wearing a GS Cap.

    [​IMG]

    Lance Corporal R W Bennett, from Leicester, of the Royal Signals receives a Bar to the Military Medal which he won at Tripoli, for gallantry during the Normandy landings.


    The correct title was "Cap, General Service". It was first introduced under "Army Council Instruction 1407" of September 1943. This cap was designed to replace the "Field Service cap" or "FS Cap"

    The General Service cap or "Cap, Ridiculous"
     
  13. IrishSoldier

    IrishSoldier Member

    Thanks Owen, good link to the origins of the "cap ridiculous", I wear one when re-enacting Irish Guards and I hate the thing, which is why I was hoping the Signals might have worn the smaller beret... no such luck, so Cap, General Service with a Signals badge will adorn my bonce once again!! Cheers.. Dave
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Didn't think the 'smaller' beret came into use until early 1950s.
     
  15. James Daly

    James Daly Senior Member

    Ah I think thats where the confusion lies, thats the kind of thing I was thinking of when I referred to a 'Beret'.

    I think I would have preferred the Beret, it looks a lot smarter. I've always thought the Scaley's Jimmy looks good too, quite a distinctive cap badge.
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew & James-
    The Black Beret of the Tank and Armoured units was not to hide oil stains - or because they fancied the French hats - BUT it was awarded by the French governments as a mark of honour for the Tank corps efforts at - particularly Cambrai in November 20 th 1917 - to this day the RAC still celebrate that battle. the fatigue uniform of Black was to hide some oil stains as they showed up on the normal khaki jobs ...

    Monty was reprimanded by a Tank Officer for wearing the Black beret but -- Monty pulled rank - now everyone seems to wear it - or at least a skull cap in Black - it's supposed to be pulled down over the right ear - now it sits on top like a skull cap !
    Bloody awful !

    Cheers
    Cheers
     
  18. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    now everyone seems to wear it - or at least a skull cap in Black -


    As Drew says in another thread, they are in fact dark blue.
    Like I wore in the 1980s.
    One of the officers used to moan at one of our L/Cpl's as he'd bought a black one & wore that, as the officer was ex-tankie he used to get narked over that.
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Its Navy Blue :p
     
  20. IMHO

    IMHO Junior Member

    Nice to hear from another old Signals man Berjay, my grandfathers name was John Smyth and he was from Sligo in Eire... I still havent got his full service record, but i know he served in North Africa, Sicily, France & Germany... he finished up with 15th Air Formation Signals at the end of the war... I believe he was attached to other outfits along the way, 8th army for sure as he told me himself before he died...possibly the Irish Brigade in Italy... do you know if Royal Signals ever wore the smaller dark blue beret during WW2 or did this appear post war?
    kind regards
    Dave

    Hallo IrishSoldier,

    My Grandfather served as an NCO of mobile radio detachment (3 Corps) of Royal Signals Corps of the 8th Army throughout WWII. He started off in 39 in Northern Ireland and went out with the first lot to perform the endless Benghazi shuffle right through the war before finally finding himself in Greece until the middle of 46.
    All the photos I saw of him in the desert he seemed to be wearing a mixture of a uniform that was virtually rags, shirt and shorts with what I can only describe as a Russian style cold weather hat. with the ear flaps hanging out, clearly having lost the button. If you were going for authenticity you might want to take a hint from this, a lot of equipment didn't get through to them, lots of them died of disease, they all looked malnourished and my Grandfather never ever talked about any of it.
    Hope that's given you and anyone else looking an insight.
     

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