Royal Welsh Fusiliers in Burma

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by Robert999, Nov 8, 2022.

  1. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    Just trying to get some info on grandads time in India.
    Info
    HQ 41 Indian Beach
    Royal Welsh Fusiliers
    He signed up 28-12-1927 at 19 but think he lied about his age as think he was only 16
    1939-45 Star
    India defence medal
    Burma star
    grandad mit.jpg
     
  2. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Always best to add your grandad's name, Date of Birth and Service Number. Always get his Service Record - PM sent on research.

    Do you know which battalion he served in? There are a small number of threads here found by using "royal welsh fusiliers" + "india" + "ww2talk.com" . According to Wiki both the 1st & 2nd Battalions served in India. From: Royal Welch Fusiliers - Wikipedia

    Note, Welch and Welsh are interchangeable!
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  3. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    Many thanks for the info and links, not sure which battalion .....attached some photos cc086250-7b9c-47a7-9be7-a94809c7d7a5.JPG 9e2a4dca-1564-429a-9b25-a59d296e5ccf.JPG
     
  4. High Wood

    High Wood Well-Known Member

    I was trying to work out what the formation sign on his slouch hat is. If he was in the 1st battalion it should be the crossed keys of the 2nd Division. If he was in the 2nd battalion it should show the entwined red and white circles of the 36th Division. Both formation signs were on a black background.My best guess is that he was in the 2nd battalion.

    36th.jpg

    The only image that I have on my computer and it is too dark now to photograph both formation signs together.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  5. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Last edited: Nov 8, 2022
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  6. Shiny 9th

    Shiny 9th Member

    I know from my research into the 9th Btn Royal Sussex that the RWF were in the same 36th division and both went to the Arakan early in 44 as they are referred to in various documents. Here they attacked the Western Tunnels on the Maungdaw/ Builthidaung Road . The entwined red and white circles in post above were worn by both units there.
     
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  7. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    [.[/QUOTE]
    2nd battalion may be about right, I read somewhere that during the later part of the war and after they where involved in internal security. I seem to remember that my father spoke of grandad being involved in security.......great stuff here.
     
  8. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Firstly, have you sent off for his offical service records, really the only place to start?
    Get a copy of military service records

    The paybook that you posted has his correct dob, 17 Apr 1909, this ties in with his enlistment entry for the Royal Welch Fusiliers, he was therefore 18 y 8m when he enlisted on 28 Dec 27. Death record gives the same dob.

    The 1939 register, where he is listed as "Army reservist RA 4188019", shows his dob as 7 Apr 09, safe to assume a mistake bearing in mind the above.

    Enlistment record shows:
    14 Aug 41 - Transferred to Permanent Staff of 60 (W) Holding Unit.
    21 Nov 41 - re-transferred to RWF.
    20 Nov 45 - Class A Release
    26 Feb 46 - Class Z Army Reserve

    His service records will give the whole story.
     
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  9. Skoyen89

    Skoyen89 Senior Member

    Hi
    You say "41 Beach". That was a separate unit to RWF that he could have been attached to. Beach Groups were set up to handle the logistics after an amphibious landing.

    For the RWF there is a great Regimental history that may answer many of your questions. It is Regimental Records of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers Vol 5 Part II by Riley, Crocker and Sinnett. One for your Christmas List or a much cheaper copy available on eBay currently!
     
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  10. Rothy

    Rothy Well-Known Member

    I have a copy and will look anything up when we know which Battalion. It is an excellent history as skoyen says.

    Rothy
     
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  11. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    Thank you all, i have now applied for his records and i understand it takes some time,
    I have also contacted a relative who may have other photos of him in uniform to assertain his battalion.....i also know he spent some time in Cyprus.....following everbody's liks for more info. Unfortunatly as a young lad when I asked him about the war years his reply was always "arh! you don't wonna know about all that".......as many did 10_2.jpg
    Photo Bill and Edith
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2022
  12. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Wiki states:
    From: Royal Welch Fusiliers - Wikipedia

    Following 36the Division link you find:
    From: 36th Infantry Division (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

    There is a film clip on 2/11/1944:
    From: REBUILDING WHITE CITY AIRSTRIP OF CHINDIT FAME (2/11/1944) | colonialfilm (no film is loaded, it is at IWM).

    41 Indian Beach appear in several places in: Full text of "The Indian Engineers 1939-47"
     
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  13. Rothy

    Rothy Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]

    Above an extract from the order of battle for XXXIII Corps for 1st November 1943. At the top of the page is the OB for 41 Indian Beach Group. [click on image to expand or see below]

    Rothy

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    Thanks for this.......the only bit I understand is the 41 IND BEACH GP the rest i would need help to understand its meaning....sadly.
     
  15. RobG64

    RobG64 Well-Known Member

    Hi, as Skoyen89 pointed out and Rothy has shown, Beach Groups were units formed by the British after Operation Torch in November 1942 to arrange and control the movement of all personnel and vehicles from the landing craft to inland assembly areas, move stores from ships to dumps in the beach maintenance area, organise the beach and beach maintenance area in regard to defence, movement and admin., provide signals communication, evacuate casualties and P.O.W.'s, create dumps for Petrol, Oil and Lubricants (P.O.L), ammunition and rations and to create assembly areas for newly arrived personnel and vehicles. They did basically everything once the assault units had pushed forward!

    The Indian Expeditionary Force had been formed in India in February 1943 to control overseas operations against the Japanese from India, specifically the seaborne forces that would assault the coast of Burma. 36th Indian Division was assigned to the I.E.F. followed by 2nd British Division in May and 50th Indian Tank Brigade in June. It had been assumed that the British would supply Beach Groups for these assault forces as most of the troops were British, but this was not the case. Therefore, in June 1943, GHQ India ordered Indian Beach Groups to be formed, consisting of Indian units, to support any amphibious assault operations carried out by the I.E.F.
    Nos. 1, 2 & 3 Indian Beach Groups were formed in July 1943 in Southern Army, using engineer and infantry units in the area. Their strength amounted to 1,900 men each with very little mechanical equipment. Although each Group had an Indian Docks Operating Company assigned to it, in reality these remained under the command of the I.E.F.
    As there were five infantry assault brigades in the two division in the I.E.F., a further two Indian Beach Groups were required. No. 4 was raised in August 1943 and No. 5 in September. It was decided to renumber them 41-45 Indian Beach Groups in October 1943 to avoid any confusion if similar numbered British Beach Groups were ever sent to India.
    When the I.E.F. was disbanded on 31st October 1943, the Beach Groups came under command XXXIII Indian Corps that had been formed to replace it.

    No.1 Indian Beach Group - formed at Bhiwandi, north-east of Bombay in July 1943 and assigned to 29th British Infantry Brigade Group of 36th Indian Division for amphibious operations. Re-designated 41 Indian Beach Group in September 1943 and carried out amphibious assault training at Madh Island, Bombay from 13th November 1943. Units included are listed below with a basic idea of what they did:
    14th Indian Engineer Battalion IE - to carry out movement of all items and supplies
    83rd Indian Infantry Company (joined the Group in late November 1943) - for beach defence
    78th (Bengal) Field Company IE - engineering tasks in the area
    241st Indian Docks Operating Company IE - at Bombay to operate equipment for unloading etc.
    213th (Bengal) Field Stores Section IE - to move all stores off the beach to dumps
    Det. 658th Mechanical Equipment Company IE - equipped with dozers and diggers
    201st Indian Beach Signal Section - signals from the beach to assault formations and ships
    Det. 227th Indian Line Section - ran and installed signals cables and repaired them
    149th Indian G.P. Transport Company - equipped with trucks and transport to move men and items
    355th Indian Supply Section - non P.O.L.
    386th Indian Supply Section (P.O.L.) - handles Petrol, Oil and Lubricants off the ships and to dumps
    1st Indian Field Hospital - for casualties
    3rd Indian Ordnance Det. - issues all equipment required
    94th L of C Provost Unit - provided men to police all the above

    More later!

    RobG64
     
  16. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    Thats great stuff thank you. I think it is pretty much confirmed that he was in fact 2nd Battalion. Odly or not after the war [ Bill ] was employed as a stores manager at an engineering company in Chiswick after a brief spell on the railway.....kinda falls in line with the 41 beach group history....... I understand that his service records are only available to next of kin until 25 years after death......as his grandson would I be classed as next of kin, my aunt ( his daughter) would be his next of kin but she is very elderly and frail now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2022
  17. RobG64

    RobG64 Well-Known Member

    41 Indian Beach Group came under command Southern Army when H.Q. XXXIII Indian Corps was sent to Assam in late March 1944 and in April moved to Coconada for combined operations training. The lack of any major amphibious operations meant that 42-44 Indian Beach Groups were disbanded in August/September 194 but 41 Indian Beach Group was kept in being in case an amphibious operation needed a beach group.
    At this time is was decided to raise the strength of 41 Indian Beach Group to 3,000 men and issue it with more mechanical equipment and units. These included:
    Signals - a cypher sub-section
    Transport - G.T. Company Workshops and three fire-fighting sections
    I.E.M.E. - Beach Group Workshops
    Labour - Pioneer Company
    Misc. - Reception Camp
    Attached: Royal Naval Beach Commando and R.A.F. Beach Unit

    On 28th December 1944 it embarked at Vizagapatam and arrived at Chittagong on 3rd January 1945, where it disembarked over five days. It moved to Akyab on 9th January followed by a move to Ramree Island on 8/9th February. Group landed at Ruywa with 53rd Indian Infantry Brigade on 16th February and after two months returned to India in April.
    The Group was assigned to XXXIV Indian Corps for Operation "Roger" but landed near Rangoon on 2nd May with 26th Indian Division. Returned to India on 7th June for more training at Madh Island to prepare for Operation "Zipper"

    RobG64
     
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  18. Rothy

    Rothy Well-Known Member

    I'm not able to quote/confirm the exact rules for applying as next of kin, however I have applied for records on behalf of families many times without difficulty. You might have two options, the first being to apply as his grandson. The second would be to apply on behalf of your aunt. Write a letter from your aunt authorising you to request the records on her behalf and get her to sign it, if she is able. Include this with the application.

    I hope this approach is still valid as they may have changed the application process. I haven't applied for records since before the Covid lock down.
     
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  19. Robert999

    Robert999 Member

    Thanks.....thats prob the way to go.
     
  20. JITTER PARTY

    JITTER PARTY Well-Known Member

    Surely 'Royal Welch Fusiliers in Burma'.
     

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