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Discussion in 'Allied Units - General.' started by frank@daley -uk.com, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. Had a reply from CWGC were possessions found with body. There were some but no dog tags however according to M O D rules they cannot pass on the information to me
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 Members Patron 1940 Obsessive

    With both unknown graves?
     
  3. Yes both bodies but nothing to identify them as individuals . The dog tags were missing. The Exhumation reports they hold in their records are not on release to the public on advice from the M O D
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 Members Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I bet the French Marie has the original report and submitted a copy to the British. Did you inquire how the other chap was identified in the 60's
     
  5. No I'm afraid not. I have a relative who lives in France who is going to phone the Marie. They are closed until next Tuesday I've also asked him to try and contact the local Priest
     
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  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    What an interesting thread this is turning into from basic research into the fate of a particular casualty and then following on to ascertain the possible whereabouts of an unknown soldier....awaiting to see what further information Drew can determine.

    I would think that initially the two unknown dead may have been interred in a field grave and then later transferred to the civilian cemetery so some vital information might be in the hands of the Quincampoix Fleury commune....the administrative structure may have changed from 1940.

    The CWGC may have detail of when the unknowns were transferred into the Commune churchyard.

    I wonder if the unit was one of the many units who had been instructed to head for the western ports for evacuation and were detailed on their journey to form defensive lines during the withdrawal.Evidence of deaths and subsequent burials during the withdrawal period to the South West and Western France of the BEF can be found in local cemeteries.

    As regards Aumale (Seine Maritime Department and on its eastern border),the Auincampiox Fleury commune (Oise Department and on the Seine Maritime eastern border) is about 8 kms of Aumale to the south east on the now D 316, and not 23 kms south east of Aumale as the CWGC records.
     
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  7. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    There used to be a very interesting website relating to the location of the body of Tom Rodgers of 2 DLI at St. Venant. It seems to have become lost but there is still a French-language link.

    It states here that the French were required by the German authorities to make detailed records upon reburial.

    Webmatters : The Battle for France May/June 1940: St Venant 2010
     
  8. The point I find interesting about both casualties is the fact that the dog tags were missing, an that a Q19 enquiries was raised on both of them. I wish I had started this search years ago. Towards the end of her life my Mother used to talk about her little brother Dougie and wondered what had happened to him I'm hopping my Cousin in France may find out some information when he phones the Marie next week
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    British identity discs were easily lost or damaged. They were only worn on a piece of softish cord and one was intended to have been removed when a field burial was made. In the chaos of 1940 this could easily have not made it back to 2nd echelon. If the French exhumation of a field grave did not take place until a year afterwards, then they would have had to find a fibre disc attached to a possibly damaged cord. Particularly if a body was on its front, as could happen in a field or mass burial, decomposition can be quite rapid.

    I've attached a photo to show the type of discs invloved. The cord is also original.

    IMG_1200 (2).JPG
     
  10. Didn't realise they were only fibre. They were metal in my day
     
  11. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The discs in the photograph belonged to my Dad's brother. He died from an accidental gunshot wound after being transferred to BAOR. Presumably the discs were returned to the War Office as they were found with his service record when Dad requested a copy several years ago and Glasgow sent them on.

    In theory, the red was removed to notify death and the green left with the body. They were supposed to be fire and rot-proof but were easily damaged.
    Identity tags
     
  12. My cousin in France has written to the Marie on my behalf requesting any info they have on the two unknown burials in the cemetery . Waiting for a reply . Hope to have some luck
     
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  13. Haven't head back from the Marie as yet . I might try and get my cousin to try the local Priest to see if he has any info
     
  14. Had a reply from the Marie . They have no info but have said to contact the " union des re'forme's et anciens combatants " . So my cousin in France is going to contact them for me . Fingers crossed
     
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  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 Members Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Good stuff Frank.
     
  16. Scouselancer

    Scouselancer Junior Member

    If I remember correctly, the Red ID Disk is Asbestos! Imagine, Material/Pressed Card ID Disk, an Asbestos ID Disk and some weakly woven string........
     
  17. Scouselancer

    Scouselancer Junior Member

    I knew of the "Appendix/Questionnaire/Form" but for the life of me I could not remember its name, I thought for some strange reason it was "Appendix or Annex 5". Will file that information away now for a later date. Thanks Drew.
     
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  18. Drew mate can I impose on you once more . You say that you have walked the area where they were in action . Have you any photos of the are if so could you let me have copies either is this site or e-mail to me at frank@daley-uk.com thanking you in advance
     
  19. My researcher is going to the N A on Wed . He is going to have a look in library first then check WO361 and WO167 will keep you posted
     
  20. Heard back from the researcher at the N A no luck although both Wiltshire and Walker are mentioned several time by name. It is just in relation to enquiries re their fate. He could not find any info about war crimes in relation to their deaths. He agrees with the location of the possible graves as they are right place right time. He has told me to get in touch with the Regimental Museum as they may have info not held a the N A
     

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